Dac Scam Video

[Bob in WI]

I suspect that some of the things that we cannot hear consciously may have an effect at subliminal level, to which some people may be more sensitive than others.

I have listened to my DAC while unconscious & heard no difference.
But, thats just me & I'm trying cut back on my consumption.

On subject, the video has a good point but like many You Tubers, perhaps overgeneralizes.
I'm a little surprised to see the emotion & anger its caused tho.
He hit some sore spots apparently.

 

[DeadTrader]

The DAC chip is only one part within a system, and EVERYTHING matters - the power supply, the digital input stage, all of the circuitry around the DAC chip (heck, different decoupling caps can make a difference!) and the analogue output stage. The DAC chip is not immune to changes to any and all of these aspects of DAC design.

I fully agree, Everything does matter. But depending on your system (amps & speakers) you will not hear any change as you go up the DAC ladder. Your base system needs to be resolving enough to fully appreciate what a better DAC can & does do.

 

[pete_mac]

I fully agree, Everything does matter. But depending on your system (amps & speakers) you will not hear any change as you go up the DAC ladder. Your base system needs to be resolving enough to fully appreciate what a better DAC can & does do.

Absolutely - the resolving capabilities of a system are critical.

In my experience there are some DACs that largely sound alike, but also plenty that sound different.

Due to differences in system quality, system and room setup, and critical listening experience of the individual, I’ve always taken the view that just because one person can’t hear a difference in their own system, doesn’t mean someone else won’t hear a difference in theirs.

 

[Bob in WI]

Spend enough you can not only hear an ant fart but you can tell whether had a beef or bean burrito for lunch.
Gonna have to spend more if you want to know if its wearing sneakers or sandals when waltzing tho.

If you're going to play the resolution game, then go all in.

 

[Oasis8]

I have listened to my DAC while unconscious & heard no difference.
But, thats just me & I'm trying cut back on my consumption.

On subject, the video has a good point but like many You Tubers, perhaps overgeneralizes.
I'm a little surprised to see the emotion & anger its caused tho.
He hit some sore spots apparently.

The sloppy application of science riddled with confounding variables does indeed rub some up the wrong way.

 

[Mart Mccall]

Absolutely - the resolving capabilities of a system are critical.

In my experience there are some DACs that largely sound alike, but also plenty that sound different.

Due to differences in system quality, system and room setup, and critical listening experience of the individual, I’ve always taken the view that just because one person can’t hear a difference in their own system, doesn’t mean someone else won’t hear a difference in theirs.

Some of us just put the very minor differences we sometimes perceive down to failure to do a proper listening comparison. It's not about those who don't hear differences vs those who do.

People with very 'basic' systems also perceive differences in DACs so the whole 'insufficiently resolving system' argument doesn't really hold water.

At least some of the minor differences perceived will be real. Not all DACs are identical in their frequency response and some have a lot of noise that could have an audible effect. Added to which not all DACs have the same output voltage so for the same position on the volume dial one can be slightly louder than the other. Not enough to be consciously noticeable, but enough to make us think one is different or 'better.'

 

[2FarGone]

In short, no two people hear exactly the same. That's why, even at the highest-performance levels of audio, we still have- and rightfully so- different equipment with slightly different "flavors", of tonal balance, perceived transient response and such.

Well said, Gordon. I find most of these arguments to be specious at best.

 

[pete_mac]

Some of us just put the very minor differences we sometimes perceive down to failure to do a proper listening comparison. It's not about those who don't hear differences vs those who do.

People with very 'basic' systems also perceive differences in DACs so the whole 'insufficiently resolving system' argument doesn't really hold water.

At least some of the minor differences perceived will be real. Not all DACs are identical in their frequency response and some have a lot of noise that could have an audible effect. Added to which not all DACs have the same output voltage so for the same position on the volume dial one can be slightly louder than the other. Not enough to be consciously noticeable, but enough to make us think one is different or 'better.'

I agree on the need to provide an even playing field for listening comparisons - that is an assumed "lock-in" from my perspective.

I also agree that some basic systems are very much capable of showing difference between DACs. However, the better and more resolving the system, the more apparent the differences become at both the macro and micro level. This is where it becomes fun comparing DACs using the exact same DAC chip in different implementations, which is where the premise of the "DAC scam" video in question falls over in my experience.

 

[Mart Mccall]

I agree on the need to provide an even playing field for listening comparisons - that is an assumed "lock-in" from my perspective.

I also agree that some basic systems are very much capable of showing difference between DACs. However, the better and more resolving the system, the more apparent the differences become at both the macro and micro level. This is where it becomes fun comparing DACs using the exact same DAC chip in different implementations, which is where the premise of the "DAC scam" video in question falls over in my experience.

I've done my fair share of CD player and DAC comparisons in the past, have to say I did not find it fun but each to his own.

My take away from that was that even though they did not all sound exactly the same to me, I found the differences were small and inconsequential. I no longer have any further interest in auditioning or changing DACs and am happy with the performance of the DAC in my pre-amp.

(Note: This was not the conclusion reached by some of the other people involved in those comparisons, and they continue to trial and to buy expensive DACS. I spent the money on better speakers instead since I was at least confident I was getting some sonic upgrade there. As always, people have to follow their own path).

The 'sufficiently resolving' thing is always a thorny point. My one source system would retail around $35K and my room is acoustically treated so I'd hope that at that price level it could manage to show up any differences that do exist, but you can never be sure about these things since there is no benchmark to go by, it's all very subjective.

 

[nefertem7]

Thanks everyone for there input and let's not forget we are all here for the reproduction of music

 

[Quadaptor!]

Sure. And I'm not trying to be contradictory. I'm just skeptical. I have concerns that a lot of what we here from DACs have more to do with things within the circuitry that have nothing to do with converting a digital signal to analog. And have more to do with just "sweetening" the sound through manipulation of the signal down stream of the conversion. Having said that, how much can actually be done to improve the basic conversion? I'm not an engineer nor pretend to play one on TV, but ow far can one actually go in improving the basic function of converting digital to analog? Judging by the market, the answer would be thousands of dollars. But really? Anyway, if I could use some education here then please feel free to some schoolin'.

PS - In my 40-plus years in this hobby I have had a number of products that were marketed as sound processors. A common product would be a parabolic or graphic equalizer. I once had a product that was marketed as a sound expander. So, in one sense, how do we know that we are not simply getting a DAC chip that was placed in a box that also contained circuitry designed for sound processing. Maybe something like a graphic equalizer without the sliders that also contained a DAC chip. This may sound a bit absurd, but I think it addresses the question you asked me. Thanks.

Well gosh, get a load of this!

Google Search

And a month ago I referred to myself as sounding absurd with such a suggestion.

 

[DeadTrader]

Well gosh, get a load of this!

Looks like a bunch of Schitt to me.

 

[pete_mac]

Well gosh, get a load of this!

Google Search

And a month ago I referred to myself as sounding absurd with such a suggestion.

I'm not quite clear which product you're linking to as that's a generic google search link, but I'm assuming it's the new DAC with the built-in parametric EQ? (EDIT: ah, just saw the other thread... it's the Mirmir)

Certainly an interesting and pretty cool addition!

In this situation the manufacturer is specifically adding a user adjustable EQ - much like adding user adjustable tone controls on an amplifier. This is different than a manufacturer deliberately EQing the frequency response of a DAC (or amplifier) so that it the response is not flat, which seemed to be what your original post was alluding to.

 

[Quadaptor!]

I'm not quite clear which product you're linking to as that's a generic google search link, but I'm assuming it's the new DAC with the built-in parametric EQ? (EDIT: ah, just saw the other thread... it's the Mirmir)

Certainly an interesting and pretty cool addition!

In this situation the manufacturer is specifically adding a user adjustable EQ - much like adding user adjustable tone controls on an amplifier. This is different than a manufacturer deliberately EQing the frequency response of a DAC (or amplifier) so that it the response is not flat, which seemed to be what your original post was alluding to.

Sorry, I didn't realize the link didn't work. However, you are correct. And I have no complaint with it. I just figured that gear like this would eventually be offered for sale from the hifi industry.