Best cartridge for Jico SAS-1 stylus?

[Mikey679]

I have an original Jico SAS-1 stylus that I purchased a while back, I've used it on an A&R Cambridge P77 and a Sumiko Pearl cartridge as well. I like the sound of the Jico on the Sumiko better than the A&R but I know there are other cartridges that share this body style and I'm wondering if there is a cart with better specs that I should be on the lookout for? I've read some of the Philips carts may be able to fit the Jico, any suggestions would be great.

 

[bobins08]

Wasn't the cartridge designed for a specific cartridge? That would probably be the "best" cartridge to use it with. I would check the SAS model number on the Jico site to see what it is compatible with.

cheers, Bob

 

[Mikey679]

Jico made their own cartridge for it but they only make 30 at a time or so the website states. Many people have used the SAS-1 on other cartridges, I'm just trying to find the best fit outside of the MM-1 made by Jico.

 

[boreas]

The only cartridge of this general design which might offer an improvement beyond that which occurs from individual cartridge to individual cartridge or placebo effect would be the Garrott Bros. P77i which uses a modified version of the cartridge body common to the other variations on the P77 theme.

John

 

[Mikey679]

I have seen that the Garrott Bros were able to do an update to the old A&R cartridges and make them sound better. I checked their website but couldn't find any info on just ordering a cartridge, I may try emailing to see if they would sell one without a stylus, thanks!

 

[boreas]

I have seen that the Garrott Bros were able to do an update to the old A&R cartridges and make them sound better. I checked their website but couldn't find any info on just ordering a cartridge, I may try emailing to see if they would sell one without a stylus, thanks!

I wasn't aware that they were willing to do that but it should be fine. I imagine it's a simply a matter of swapping out the (Nagaoka?) guts from the generator with theirs. Why not ask them if they're still willing to do the swap (or ask them about both options and see which is cheaper). Right now the AUD is worth about $0.75 so a complete cartridge is about USD 400.00.

John

 

[Mikey679]

Yeah, I'm not sure if they'd do just a cartridge, either. That's why I'll just send an email to them to ask. They may only sell one with a stylus as per their website but I guess it doesn't hurt to check and see what they are willing to do.

 

[patient_ot]

The Pearl and the P77 are both based on the Excel ES-70. You could try an ES-70 body, which may or may not work. There is also a cart from Coral, the old Sumiko Andante, and the LP Gear Vessel series, among others. The Vessel has an odd plastic body housing around it which may prevent installation of that Jico stylus. Unless you are willing to re-body that cart I probably wouldn't attempt trying your Jico with the Vessel.

 

[boreas]

The Pearl and the P77 are both based on the Excel ES-70. You could try an ES-70 body, which may or may not work. There is also a cart from Coral, the old Sumiko Andante, and the LP Gear Vessel series, among others. The Vessel has an odd plastic body housing around it which may prevent installation of that Jico stylus. Unless you are willing to re-body that cart I probably wouldn't attempt trying your Jico with the Vessel.

As I said above, these bodies are all likely identical electrically, same inductance and same resistance. These were all OEM cartridges built, I believe, by Nagatron/Nagaoka for various other companies who wanted something to put their name on, be that JICO, Sumiko, Arcam, Excel or LP Gear. So, fitted with the same stylus, they will all sound the same, excepting differences owing to production tolerances. The only cartridge I know of that differs from these is the Garrott P77i. This is because Garrott modifies the generator.

John

 

[patient_ot]

As I said above, these bodies are all likely identical electrically, same inductance and same resistance. These were all OEM cartridges built, I believe, by Nagatron/Nagaoka for various other companies who wanted something to put their name on, be that JICO, Sumiko, Arcam, Excel or LP Gear. So, fitted with the same stylus, they will all sound the same, excepting differences owing to production tolerances. The only cartridge I know of that differs from these is the Garrott P77i. This is because Garrott modifies the generator.

John

There is a spec sheet with different specs for the different ES-70 models. I don't remember offhand if the electrical specs are different. I emailed Sumiko and I am waiting on specs for the Pearl. The inductance on the A3SE is very low per LPGears specs. I think their body might be a little different because the A3SE and the Pearl appear to have the same stylus yet the stereo separation, output, and maybe some other specs are different. I don't have a Pearl on hand to test against the A3SE as I said in another thread.

I thought the OEM was Excel Sound Corporation, not Nagaoka. Maybe you have inside info on that front?

 

[patient_ot]

Here is the spec sheet for the ES-70:

http://imgur.com/X9nL7VE?

Unfortunately inductance for the carts is not listed.

 

[boreas]

Unfortunately inductance for the carts is not listed.

I've found that to be true for all the related cartridges I've been able to find specs for, no DCR, no inductance.

My understanding is that Excel bought and marketed them, just like Arcam, Rega, Garrott and others did.

I'd like to see what Mikey679's two cartridges measure. Inductance and resistance would be great but even just an ohm reading would tell us whether the two are the same.

John

 

[patient_ot]

Excel is an OEM. They make the Hana carts also. Whether they bought the ES-70 from another firm and marketed it under their brand I cannot say.

Here are some electrical specs from the A3SE:

Internal impedance @ 1kHz: 670 ohms
Internal inductance: 270 mH

I posted a review of the A3SE here:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/lpgear-vessel-a3se-cartridge-review.776064/

 

[boreas]

Excel is an OEM. They make the Hana carts also. Whether they bought the ES-70 from another firm and marketed it under their brand I cannot say.

That's my understanding but I'm prepared to be wrong. The Nagaoka family resemblance is, however, quite strong.

Here are some electrical specs from the A3SE:

Internal impedance @ 1kHz: 670 ohms
Internal inductance: 270 mH

I posted a review of the A3SE here:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/lpgear-vessel-a3se-cartridge-review.776064/

What do you suppose the significance of "t71" to be? It strikes me as likely that this is a dead stock buy of some sort like their Tonar 555/Nagaoka JT555 buy. This isn't meant to denigrate the Vessel as it appears to be a competent cartridge. It's just that LP Gear tends to make stuff up now and again like the rare and exotic Zualum cantilever.

John

 

[Mikey679]

I've found that to be true for all the related cartridges I've been able to find specs for, no DCR, no inductance.

My understanding is that Excel bought and marketed them, just like Arcam, Rega, Garrott and others did.

I'd like to see what Mikey679's two cartridges measure. Inductance and resistance would be great but even just an ohm reading would tell us whether the two are the same.

John

How would I go about getting the inductance and resistance? I'm not sure I have the means to do those but I can grab my meter from work if it means taking a reading with one. I'd just need to know how exactly to get the correct numbers to post here.

Edit: I found someone on a site that says they checked the inductance of the sumiko pearl and its 580mh and a 580 DC Resistance. Gotta scroll down about halfway or search the page for sumiko, you'll find it:

https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/questioning-phono-sanity_topic1370_page2.html

 

[boreas]

To measure the resistance you'd need a digital multimeter with a setting for measuring ohms, a setting they all have. For measuring inductance you need a multimeter with a setting for that which most don't have.

John

 

[patient_ot]

That's my understanding but I'm prepared to be wrong. The Nagaoka family resemblance is, however, quite strong.

What do you suppose the significance of "t71" to be? It strikes me as likely that this is a dead stock buy of some sort like their Tonar 555/Nagaoka JT555 buy. This isn't meant to denigrate the Vessel as it appears to be a competent cartridge. It's just that LP Gear tends to make stuff up now and again like the rare and exotic Zualum cantilever.

John

It is true LPGear loves marketing hype. The cart, when I got it, looked nothing like any deadstock I've ever had/bought. I haven't got a clue about the t71 either.

RE: Nagaoka, someone correct me if I'm wrong on this but aren't some Nagaoka carts moving iron designs? The MP series is what I'm referring to. IIRC, most or all of the ES-70 based carts are MM.

Another thing: I would be curious about the connection between Nagaoka and Excel Sound. Both are OEMs, but Nagaoka just released a cart in conjunction with Pioneer that looks like it is also based on the ES-70, except with high output and a heavy duty DJ stylus.

See here:

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/product/accessories/pc-x10/black/overview/

 

[boreas]

I think that the Pioneer PC-X10 is pretty clear evidence that Nagaoka was responsible or the ES-70, etc. but Excel's connection to Nagaoka is/was similar to Pioneer's, I.e. a customer. I agree that Excel is a manufacturer of cartridges. They just didn't make the ES-70. And yes, some Nagaokas are IMs.

John

 

[Balifly]

It is true LPGear loves marketing hype. The cart, when I got it, looked nothing like any deadstock I've ever had/bought. I haven't got a clue about the t71 either.

RE: Nagaoka, someone correct me if I'm wrong on this but aren't some Nagaoka carts moving iron designs? The MP series is what I'm referring to. IIRC, most or all of the ES-70 based carts are MM.

Another thing: I would be curious about the connection between Nagaoka and Excel Sound. Both are OEMs, but Nagaoka just released a cart in conjunction with Pioneer that looks like it is also based on the ES-70, except with high output and a heavy duty DJ stylus.

See here:

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/product/accessories/pc-x10/black/overview/

Good question about what connection there may be between the two companies.

You can ask them at their web site.

Here are the links:

Nagaoka
http://www.nagaokatrd.co.jp/company/index.html

Excel Sound
http://www.excelsound.co.jp/contents/index.html

 

[dmsheehan]

Okay.....I am dredging this old thread up as it is only 9 months or so since the last post. I just stumbled upon an A&R P77 on Fleabay that I purchased from a gentleman in Great Britain. I am still waiting on delivery. I had done some research on all of these supposedly similar carts, (P77, Andante, Sumiko Black Pearl......etc) as per how well the Jico SAS Stylus 1 sounds with them. As Jico now has stopped selling the SAS styli to international buyers (I was able to get a Neo SAS Shure Vn45he) recently from LpGear for a price lower than the Neos were going for when they were still available, but that is going off on a tangent.

I did, however, remember about Expert Stylus in Great Britain and I sent them an email about stylus availability for the A&R P77 cart. They replied that the did have them and I arranged to have the paratrace verstion sent to me. I am still awaiting delivery on that as well.

In the mean time, I was sorting through boxes of unused, old cartridge bodies and stumbled upon the Sumiko Black Pearl cart sans stylus. I stuck a Shure n97xe stylus in it and tested the channels with my digital multimeter. It measured 467 and 477 ohms with the 2k parameter selected on the multimeter.

So I have a working Sumiko Black Pearl cartridge and an A&R P77 cartridge arriving shortlly (I hope). I will test the resistance readings on the P77 when I get it to see how they compare to the Black Pearl. I will say the Black Pearl body looks somewhat similar to the P77 other than the plastic housing that encloses the metal cartridge body. It will be interesting to see if the Expert Stylus P77 paratrace stylus fits the Sumiko without any minor surgery. The Shure N97XE slid right in, but is held off a bit by some plastic molding on the stylus body. I tried an LPgear n97xe VividLine and it slides all the way in. I am going to mount the Sumiko Black Pearl on a headshell and give it a spin.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what other styi might fit the Black Pearl?