Is VPI acknowledging a serious design flaw?

[Mellotronix]

Just curious about this. I bought one of these Prime Scouts in Spring of 2019. Almost immediately, I noticed that it generated extreme amounts of ESD (static electricity) which I documented here on AK. I damaged three phono preamps in the space of a month while trying to sort out the issue. Two of them, a Project Tube Box DS and a Sutherland KC Vibe were fixed under warranty. I blamed it on the low humidity and extreme electrical anomalies that occur at high altitude.

I installed industrial grade rubber floor mats that are grounded, and I ran a ground wire from the main bearing assembly of the VPI to the ground plug on the terminal. Then I blew a component on my Sutherland for a second time. Then a third time while using an anti static gun. I was totally miffed, but Sutherland was amazing. They kept fixing it and paying for shipping. People on this forum thought I was crazy (seriously, I got PM's that you wouldn't believe).

Now I see that VPI has apparently added a ground wire from what appears to be the tonearm base to the grounding terminal. I'm thinking that the good folks at Sutherland may have had a conversation about the repairs that they were having to do for VPI owners. Perhaps other VPI's suffer from this as well.

When I grounded the main bearing assembly, I assumed the the tonearm would also be grounded because there is a steel bottom plate that all of the components come into contact with. Now I'm questioning my reasoning. Are there nylon washer involved in some of the parts?

Anyway, I think that the current product photos for the Prime Scout have answered my question.

 

[ripblade]

Charge build up in the metal components can find ground through the phono stage via the signal leads if there's no other path. That's why there should be a separate ground wire. I experienced this with my Sol when they shipped mine without a connected ground post. Huge discharges through the phono stage, like static, but more like lightening bolts. Thankfully, the JC-2 is built like a tank. I was able to fix it by properly connecting the post to the chassis, and separating signal and chassis grounds. All is good, now.

 

[DavidTT]

I remember your posts about static and struggled to relate to so much damage to components at the time because it seemed so far outside typical experience. What a bummer though. Stupid questions but have you ever tried to swap in other turntables to see whether the static problem disappeared? If it turned out that the VPI was the cause of the issues that would be a kick in the pants considering their cost. Last, have you touched base with VPI to discuss? Would be interesting to hear their response.

 

[Tedrick]

Very sorry for your troubles. I own 3 VPI 'tables myself and personally know 5 other VPI owners, and none of us have ever experienced this problem. I wonder if this issue is unique to the JMW-9T tonearm with the anodized unipivot bearing body and headshell??

 

[Mellotronix]

I remember your posts about static and struggled to relate to so much damage to components at the time because it seemed so far outside typical experience. What a bummer though. Stupid questions but have you ever tried to swap in other turntables to see whether the static problem disappeared? If it turned out that the VPI was the cause of the issues that would be a kick in the pants considering their cost. Last, have you touched base with VPI to discuss? Would be interesting to hear their response.

Yes, I have had two other TT's in the system. Both would produce static as expected, but it would go to ground and do no damage downstream. I only corresponded with the folks at Sutherland and Project (Sumiko). They were helpful and I have more details, but I'm short on time at the moment.

By the way, I have a JMW 9 3D arm on my system.

 

[Mellotronix]

I remember your posts about static and struggled to relate to so much damage to components at the time because it seemed so far outside typical experience. What a bummer though. Stupid questions but have you ever tried to swap in other turntables to see whether the static problem disappeared? If it turned out that the VPI was the cause of the issues that would be a kick in the pants considering their cost. Last, have you touched base with VPI to discuss? Would be interesting to hear their response.

OK--Got a few more minutes here. So one of the issues that I discussed with Sutherland (I forget the tech's name but I think he's the only one working during COVID) is the unique challenges that high altitude plays along with the extreme dryness. The conditions allow static to travel with less impedance because the air molecules are less dense. What might do very minor damage under normal conditions of say 30-40% humidity near sea level can do serious damage at 5000' with 15% humidity. Also, wearing rubber souled shoes will render my anti-static mats useless, and I sometimes forget because I rarely wear shoes in the house. Additionally, damage to circuit boards--capacitors, resistors, and op amps can be cumulative. You can zap them over time and eventually they fail. So ideally, even at sea level, you want to avoid any ESD (duh). I've taken care to mitigate that, but I am going to rig a system so that I can "star ground" all of the components that I come into contact with and shunt it off safely. We talked about how components are designed to filter dirty power and some degree of surge, but rarely are systems protected against ESD coming from the opposite direction. The vast majority of users would not experience the extremes.

But, and I'm totally guessing here so bear with me, the fact that VPI has installed a grounding system for their tonearm/tonearm base suggests to me that they are aware that there is a potential for ESD to move through the tonearm to the next component and cause damage. I mean, it's the first time I've seen a grounding system like this since the Prime lineup was introduced quite a few years back.

Notice the design differences between the Prime and the Prime Scout.

 

[WaynerN]

Very sorry for your troubles. I own 3 VPI 'tables myself and personally know 5 other VPI owners, and none of us have ever experienced this problem. I wonder if this issue is unique to the JMW-9T tonearm with the anodized unipivot bearing body and headshell??

That could be true if the problem were electrical in nature as anodized surfaces are not good electrical conductors. However, any metal, regardless of finish (I think) will be highway for static travel.

We have 2 surfaces rubbing against each other, and that makes static, plus new records are filled with static from the pressing process. If your table has no way to drain the static, it will sooner or later find a discharge path. I can't think of one of my arms that is not connected to the ground wire, even my VPI-HW19jr (with AQ PT-6 arm) has a ground scheme to the arm.

To the OP, yes I think it was overlooked, or maybe they thought that because the base was MDF, grounding the arm was not necessary......wrong!

(added) As a side note, I think its odd that the OP didn't get zapped when he touched the arm....He would have become the discharge feature for the static. Maybe he has a carpeted floor that makes himself a charged element??

"ner

 

[Vintagear]

OK--Got a few more minutes here. So one of the issues that I discussed with Sutherland (I forget the tech's name but I think he's the only one working during COVID) is the unique challenges that high altitude plays along with the extreme dryness. The conditions allow static to travel with less impedance because the air molecules are less dense. What might do very minor damage under normal conditions of say 30-40% humidity near sea level can do serious damage at 5000' with 15% humidity. Also, wearing rubber souled shoes will render my anti-static mats useless, and I sometimes forget because I rarely wear shoes in the house. Additionally, damage to circuit boards--capacitors, resistors, and op amps can be cumulative. You can zap them over time and eventually they fail. So ideally, even at sea level, you want to avoid any ESD (duh). I've taken care to mitigate that, but I am going to rig a system so that I can "star ground" all of the components that I come into contact with and shunt it off safely. We talked about how components are designed to filter dirty power and some degree of surge, but rarely are systems protected against ESD coming from the opposite direction. The vast majority of users would not experience the extremes.

But, and I'm totally guessing here so bear with me, the fact that VPI has installed a grounding system for their tonearm/tonearm base suggests to me that they are aware that there is a potential for ESD to move through the tonearm to the next component and cause damage. I mean, it's the first time I've seen a grounding system like this since the Prime lineup was introduced quite a few years back.

Notice the design differences between the Prime and the Prime Scout.

View attachment 2023448 View attachment 2023449

The Scout models that preceded yours already had the wire that went from under the tonearm base to the outside rear of the lemo box. I'm very surprised your Scout did not have one. I'm also surprised that you did not get a buzz or hum.

I believe that you do not see a wire on the Prime because it has the adjustable VTA base so the wire is not needed for electrical continuity to the lemo because the lemo box is attached to the same metal base as the male spike that the tonearm balances on.

If your table was purchased new it may have been a manufacturing oversight, if it was purchased used or open box it's possible the previous owner removed it for some reason and the dealer did not notice when it was returned. I'd call VPI customer service and explain the situation and see if they can send you a replacement wire.

 

[ripblade]

The Scout models that preceded yours already had the wire that went from under the tonearm base to the outside rear of the lemo box. I'm very surprised your Scout did not have one. I'm also surprised that you did not get a buzz or hum every time you touched the tonearm.

I believe that you do not see a wire on the Prime because it has the adjustable VTA base so the wire is not needed for electrical continuity to the lemo because the lemo box is attached to the same metal base as the male spike.

If your table was purchased new it may have been a manufacturing oversight, if it was purchased used or open box it's possible the previous owner removed it for some reason and the dealer did not notice when it was returned. I'd call VPI customer service and explain the situation and see if they can send you a replacement wire.

The arm is plastic, is it not? If it is, it won't buzz when you touch it.

Simply having 2 pieces of metal in contact with each other does not guarantee continuity. That's the mistake Schiit made with my Sol. At the very least, a through bolt and star washer and nut are needed, as is often seen in amp grounding schemes.

 

[Vintagear]

The arm is plastic, is it not? If it is, it won't buzz when you touch it.

Simply having 2 pieces of metal in contact with each other does not guarantee continuity. That's the mistake Schiit made with my Sol. At the very least, a through bolt and star washer and nut are needed, as is often seen in amp grounding schemes.

I recall seeing some pictures of his Prime Scout and I thought it had the metal arm.

I agree on the continuity issue not being guaranteed by simply having metal contact but he doesn't have the VTA base so it's irrelevant here. Regardless, unlike Schiit, VPI has been at this for a while and already had their tonearms well grounded so if they removed the wire it must have been because it was no longer needed. The plastic arm is a good point. I wonder if he has both types of arms. It's possible that VPI does not include the wire if the table is shipped with a printed arm.

@Mellotronix, did your table originally come with a 3D arm and then you also added a metal arm?

 

[Mellotronix]

The Scout models that preceded yours already had the wire that went from under the tonearm base to the outside rear of the lemo box. I'm very surprised your Scout did not have one. I'm also surprised that you did not get a buzz or hum.

I believe that you do not see a wire on the Prime because it has the adjustable VTA base so the wire is not needed for electrical continuity to the lemo because the lemo box is attached to the same metal base as the male spike that the tonearm balances on.

If your table was purchased new it may have been a manufacturing oversight, if it was purchased used or open box it's possible the previous owner removed it for some reason and the dealer did not notice when it was returned. I'd call VPI customer service and explain the situation and see if they can send you a replacement wire.

Yes. I agree and that's why I posted the photos so that you could see how the Prime's terminal box makes direct contact. My PS came with a 3D arm and I purchased the JMW metal arm for my mono carts. It was brand new, never opened. No hum. Dead quiet with my SS low output Zephyr Star MIMC ES, Hana ML and Grado Reference 3. I've looked at this table online many times. There was no ground connector until I saw it yesterday. That's why I created this thread. I will contact VPI. Thanks so much for your great info!

 

[Vintagear]

Yes. I agree and that's why I posted the photos so that you could see how the Prime's terminal box makes direct contact. My PS came with a 3D arm and I purchased the JMW metal arm for my mono carts. It was brand new, never opened. No hum. Dead quiet with my SS low output Zephyr Star MIMC ES, Hana ML and Grado Reference 3. I've looked at this table online many times. There was no ground connector until I saw it yesterday. That's why I created this thread. I will contact VPI. Thanks so much for your great info!

If you use the metal arm on your Scout Prime you need the ground wire.

Based on the pictures below it definitely looks like Scouts with 3D arms do not come with the ground wire and Scouts with metal arms do.

 

[Mellotronix]

I recall seeing some pictures of his Prime Scout and I thought it had the metal arm.

I agree on the continuity issue not being guaranteed by simply having metal contact but he doesn't have the VTA base so it's irrelevant here. Regardless, unlike Schiit, VPI has been at this for a while and already had their tonearms well grounded so if they removed the wire it must have been because it was no longer needed. The plastic arm is a good point. I wonder if he has both types of arms. It's possible that VPI does not include the wire if the table is shipped with a printed arm.

@Mellotronix, did your table originally come with a 3D arm and then you also added a metal arm?

The 3D arm does transfer ESD quite well, but I've eliminated that with anti static runners so it never occurs unless I'm wearing rubber soled shoes. The last time I damaged my Sutherland was from using an anti static gun which I have used for decades. Obviously, I put a stop to that. And, I can assure you that the grounding wire has not shown up on the Prime Scout product photos with either arm until very recently. I think that they just started including it very recently.

Incidentally, I didn't fully appreciate the 3D arm until I mounted a Grado Reference 3 to the metal tonearm. That particular cartridge is very difficult to set up to begin with. It's very sensitive and the metal tonearm just does not have enough damping. It sets up perfectly on the 3D arm.

 

[Mellotronix]

If you use the metal arm on your Scout Prime you need the ground wire.

Based on the pictures below it definitely looks like Scouts with 3D arms do not come with the ground wire and Scouts with metal arms do.

Obviously, this is the answer to part of the mystery. Thanks. However, I did not own the metal arm when I had the initial problems 18 months ago. I was using the 3D arm exclusively. I'll contact VPI and get their input.

I do want to say that it's a fantastic turntable for the money. I've considered upgrading to the Prime many times, but I just can't find any fault with this deck in terms of playback quality. I was able to get in on a deal before VPI raised their prices awhile back.

Item Status Qty Total
VPI - Prime Scout Turntable with JMW 3D Tonearm Armwand (9")
AVPITTPRMSCT3D9 Shipped 1
SubTotal:
$2,199.00
Shipping:
$0.00
Estimated Tax:
$0.00
Grand Total:
$2,199.00
P

 

[Vintagear]

Obviously, this is the answer to part of the mystery. Thanks. However, I did not own the metal arm when I had the initial problems 18 months ago. I was using the 3D arm exclusively. I'll contact VPI and get their input.

I do want to say that it's a fantastic turntable for the money. I've considered upgrading to the Prime many times, but I just can't find any fault with this deck in terms of playback quality. I was able to get in on a deal before VPI raised their prices awhile back.

Item Status Qty Total
VPI - Prime Scout Turntable with JMW 3D Tonearm Armwand (9")
AVPITTPRMSCT3D9 Shipped 1
SubTotal:
$2,199.00
Shipping:
$0.00
Estimated Tax:
$0.00
Grand Total:
$2,199.00
P

You definitely made an interesting observation about the missing ground wire on your version. Please update this thread when you hear from VPI regarding the rationale.

I can't see it being a design flaw. Even the older Scouts had it (as does my Scoutmaster). If metal arm Prime Scouts did ship without the wire I'm wondering if it was a production error/ mix-up.




I can't imagine why VPI would remove that wire from later models (especially those with metal arms). Maybe others here with Prime Scouts w/ metal arms can chime in and tell us if their unit has the ground wire.

 

[Mellotronix]

(added) As a side note, I think its odd that the OP didn't get zapped when he touched the arm....He would have become the discharge feature for the static. Maybe he has a carpeted floor that makes himself a charged element??
"ner

Yes. On my old Technics and Project Classic turntables, I would simply discharge static by touching a nearby lamp. Never had an issue, other than the jolt. You have no idea what it's like around here from October through March. You are constantly getting shocked from car interiors, light switches, windows, door handles, etc.

You can see the mats in these pics. American Floor Mats is great. They have everything. You can see the cable snaking thru my records to ground on one of the mats. They all do that.

 

[Mellotronix]

You definitely made an interesting observation about the missing ground wire on your version. Please update this thread when you hear from VPI regarding the rationale.

I can't see it being a design flaw. Even the older Scouts had it (as does my Scoutmaster). If metal arm Prime Scouts did ship without the wire I'm wondering if it was a production error/ mix-up.




I can't imagine why VPI would remove that wire from later models (especially if it has a metal arm). Maybe others here with Prime Scouts w/ metal arms can chime in and tell us if their unit has the ground wire.

You are correct. More of an oversight or perhaps a decision based on something else. The Prime Scout, unlike that Scout that you posted, does have a black coated metal plate that runs from the base of the arm to the terminal box. Someone pointed out that anodized metal doesn't conduct very well, and this could be the case. We're talking about extreme conditions here, and simple humidifiers, no matter how hard you run them, don't solve all of the problems. The water just evaporates into the thin air as fast as it comes out.

 

[oldman54]

I have 2 tables, not high end, w/o a ground wire. I had an ARXA, no ground. All are grounded through the shield on the rca cables. I'm also at 4700 ft with single digit humidity from time to time. I get static but have never fried a preamp.

 

[Vintagear]

You are correct. More of an oversight or perhaps a decision based on something else. The Prime Scout, unlike that Scout that you posted, does have a black coated metal plate that runs from the base of the arm to the terminal box. Someone pointed out that anodized metal doesn't conduct very well, and this could be the case. We're talking about extreme conditions here, and simple humidifiers, no matter how hard you run them, don't solve all of the problems. The water just evaporates into the thin air as fast as it comes out.

True, but my Scoutmaster also has the black coated metal plate that runs from the base of the arm to the terminal box and it also has the ground wire, so I don't think they were relying on that plate for continuity.

 

[Mellotronix]

If you use the metal arm on your Scout Prime you need the ground wire.

Based on the pictures below it definitely looks like Scouts with 3D arms do not come with the ground wire and Scouts with metal arms do.

Ok, here's the final proof. Went to the owner's manual that came with my deck. Clearly, this manual shows a metal tonearm exactly like the one that I purchased fairly recently. There is no ground from the tonearm assembly to the junction box listed or pictured or mentioned anywhere in the manual.