KLH 22A speaker score

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While at my local flea market today I stopped by a table that has various electronics for sale and I found a decent looking pair of KLH 22A speakers. When I asked the price he said $10 so I handed him the money.

Very minor finish issues due to normal wear and tear, but nothing bad. Also missing one of the terminal screws, but I plan on installing a 1/4" jack on each speaker so not an issue.

My first impression of the speakers is that they are very good.

Listening to them in my bedroom system which consists of a McIntosh C24 preamp driving a 70Hz two way 24 db/octave active crossover which drives a Lafayette LA-375 amp and a BASH 500 watt amp powering a bucket sub they sound quite good.

I did a frequency response test and the tweeters still have output up to 16KHz.

I had planned on installing a couple dome tweeters to cover above 12.5KHz, but the more I listen to these speakers the more I'm finding that to be unnecessary at least with the oldies music I am playing.

Once I replace those I will give it another listen playing all kinds of music to determine if the dome tweeters are actually necessary. I only like to use dome tweeters crossed over around 12.5K to help the upper treble sound right with cone tweeters as I think dome tweeters are too bright when crossed over like a regular tweeter is.

I think what is helping these speakers sound so good is that I am driving them with a vintage amplifier.

The main question is what value are the crossover caps?

Also is there anything else I should look out for with these speakers?

Also would there be any benefit to switching the tweeter crossover to 12 db/octave?
 
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Just thought of something. These surrounds look like they are the type that were doped at one time. I do have a product that I got to extend the life of the replacement foam surrounds for a pair of JL 12W6V2 subs and doesn't stiffen up the foam any. Would that work?
 
The KLH 22 is not all that common, but I believe it is a smallish two-way from the 60's. During that period, virtually all KLH woofers had cloth surrounds on the woofers, and the correct sealant dope is a particular butyl solution (available online from vintage AR). Do not use the product intended for foam.

Posting pics is always helpful, but I don't know why you are tempted to carry out tweeter mods, which would probably require crossover mods as well. The original tweets are very good and I believe may use 4uF caps, but you'd do better to open them up and confirm for yourself. Meanwhile, read this thread:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/...5782-klh-twenty-two-model-22-cap-replacement/

KLH 22A.jpg
 
Ditto what ra.ra said. It's important to use the correct dope on classic KLH and AR speakers with cloth surrounds. Other stuff may damage them beyond repair.
 
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Will get the right stuff.

The reason for the tweeter mod is because most cone tweeters seem to me like they don't do a very good job reproducing the upper treble above 12KHz, but these seem to sound ok.

Looking online i found where the caps are 8 and 16 uF.
 
If memory serves, it's a single cap that has an 8 and 16uf side. I have a pair of these (or maybe they are 24's) on the todo list currently.

Also be wary of the insulation inside, it's nasty stuff. There is also typically a foam gasket behind the woofer that should be saved and treated nicely. From what I recall, they are easily damaged and not easily replaced.
 
Yes the insulation is indeed nasty stuff.

Been playing these at moderate listening levels and just a couple minutes ago I had one speaker start sounding distorted. I quickly substituted one of the Olson speakers normally used with the bedroom system these speakers are connected to just to verify it was the speaker. I then connected the speaker back up and removed the grill then pressed on the woofer cone and the problem is solved.

Is that an indication of a problem or could it have happened because the surrounds need re-doped?

Also I have no way of knowing how these speakers were treated by their previous owner and whether or not they were ever ran with the surrounds needing to be re-doped.

Any idea what the maximum power handling of these speakers is?

The amp I am using does around 20 WPC.
 
Just a couple more thoughts. Not sure what the difference is between model Twenty-Two and model Twenty-Two A, but before ordering new caps, you really should look inside to confirm and not simply trust the first thing from the web. You may indeed find a dual cap (8 + 16uF) but if not, this would not be the first speaker model to have more than one crossover configuration.

About the tweeter, I'm still confused - - - you suggest you are seeking HF performance above 12kHz, but you have already measured these up to 16kHz, so what exactly is the concern?
 
The tweeter response was the initial concern, but after measuring it to 16KHz and hearing output it is less of a concern. That said I won't truly know until I get the replacement caps installed and then have a listen as simply having response to 16KHz tells me nothing about how the tweeter actually sounds at those frequencies.

Looking inside one speaker initially I thought it was wired wrong and couldn't make heads or tails of anything until I verified online that mine does indeed have a dual cap.

The difference between the 22 and 22A is the 22 uses a single cap and no resistor which provides for a 6 db/octave two way crossover, whereas the 22A uses a dual cap and a small value resistor in series with the tweeter for a 12 db/octave woofer crossover and 6 db/octave tweeter crossover while slightly reducing the tweeter level.
 
Nice score. If they have badges even better. If not, message me. I've got a set of badges for 22's-24's laying around here somewhere. Nice little set of often overlooked bookshelf speakers. You'll notice a substantial improvement in bass production after putting new sealant on the surrounds but definitely roll with the Vintage AR product and nothing else. I'm surprised that the tweets are working at all much less at the output you described. Original caps in those were crap. I've had great success using Solens in the KLH's. Their just a tadd bit brighter than the Daytons. Good luck!
 
Good info from gbroot, and thx to the OP for explaining the model differences between 22 and 22A.
 
The badges are present and in good condition.

Where exactly can I get the proper doping material?

Here's the front with the grill



Front without the grill



Here's what I did with the terminal board. Found I had four 1/4" jacks and that each hole where a terminal went through could hold one jack so I wired two in parallel so that if I decide to plug in another pair of speakers I can.



Using a better signal source the tweeters play nice up to 13KHz then their output starts to drop.

Won't know if I will leave them alone or add a dome until I recap the crossovers and see how they sound.
 
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"Where exactly can I get the proper doping material?"
Ebay Seller "Vintage-AR" sells it but the store is currently closed. AKer RoyC is the one who developed it. I'd get in touch with him. If that doesn't work, just set them aside until Vintage-AR's store is reopened. It is worth it not to get too antsy and go a different direction. Spoken from experience. :whip:
 
Dang.

For now I've been using them at normal listening levels crossed over with a 2 way 24 db/octave 70Hz active crossover and a powered sub.

If I do need the dome tweeters here's what I'll do. I will mount them and their crossover in a small box that can sit on top of the main speakers. One of the 1/4 jacks will be used to supply the signal to the dome tweeter while the switched portion will remove the short across an inductor in series with the original tweeter. That way when the dome tweeter is plugged in the orignal tweeter now has a bandpass filter created by the choke and capacitor and with the dome tweeter unplugged the inductor is shorted and the speaker operates as it did originally.

Here's the circuit.



Figured this is the best way since it doesn't involve cutting any holes in the speaker at all.

I won't even need to rewire the jack as I will just need to put the inductor across the switch of the jack and connect the tweeter crossover cap to the switched part of the jack.

For a 6 ohm dome tweeter (box of 200 Onkyo tweeters bought a few years ago from parts express for $10) I will need a 2uF cap for a crossover frequency of 13,250Hz.
 
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Judging by a frequency sweep I did, it looks like I need to get one of those Mini DSP things which work with certain mics and REQ software which will allow the sound to be tailored to the room the speakers are in to eliminate peaks and nulls in the audio response.

EDIT:

I did do a frequency response test comparing the 22A speakers to a pair of Olson S-850 speakers I added a dome tweeter to like I had planned to do to these and the roll off of the highs for the 22A speakers was real close to the roll off of the speakers with the dome tweeters so that confirms that the 22A tweeters are capable of at least 15,000 Hz response.

I don't know why the original caps are still good enough though. Then again if the caps were to change value or have some other defect that didn't totally open the cap up or make it go real high resistance I probably wouldn't know it not having heard this model of speaker before.

These speakers do integrate with the powered bucket sub much better than the smaller Olson speakers did.

I'd like to find a way to integrate the Olson speakers so they don't sit around unused, but I don't really need them.

One thing I've learned is that there's a big difference in cone tweeters. The cheaper cone tweeters which is basically all I've had experience with don't reproduce the upper treble right, whereas the better quality cone tweeters such as the ones in these KLH speakers do sound quite good.

Before making mods to speakers I always give the speakers a listen and note any deficiencies I hear then I first look for ways to correct the problem with the speakers as they are. Only when I cannot correct the problem with the original drivers and crossover mods do I look at replacing drivers or adding a dome tweeter.
 
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Good news. The caps came in and I replaced the originals.

The speakers sound a bit better, but it will take quite a bit of listening to decide if I actually need the dome tweeters.

EDIT:

I did mod one speaker so that a choke was inserted in series with the original tweeter whenever an external tweeter is plugged in. I did try the dome tweeter and found I have to reduce its level.

The crossover is at 12,040Hz. I honestly think in order to integrate the tweeter properly I would need the crossover to be around 13-14KHz.

On some songs the original tweeters sound ok, but on others it is quite obvious that something is missing in the upper treble.

Now with the bucket sub adjusted properly it sounds like the bass under 70Hz is coming from the KLH speakers even though it is coming from the subwoofer.

While thinking on the inductor I found a good use for my Dayton Audio DATS V2 tester. Making my own inductors. I needed a pair of .092uH inductors so I took two regular inductors a bit higher than that and unwound a bit then tested and when I got to the required value I repeated the same with the other inductor.

These will take some extended listening sessions in order to figure out if everything is good as is. I am impressed though at how good the speakers sound otherwise.

What I need to do is make a variable L-pad box using two variable resistors so I can have an adjustable L-pad for any speaker impedance. Basically how it would work is I would use an online calculator to get the resistance values based on the amount of attenuation then I would set the variable resistors to those values using my DMM. That way I can easily play around with attenuating drivers in order to match them to other drivers in a 2 or 3 way speaker system.
 
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An update.

About a couple weeks ago I decided not to wait for the eBay store to open back up so I tried that stuff I got with the reform kit for another speaker and it smells and looks a lot like Elmer's white school glue which has been thinned somewhat with something. So far that stuff seems to be working good. Just checked tonight and everything seems to be holding up good and the surrounds are still properly sealed while maintaining proper flexibility.

Is it factory correct? No.

Does it work? Yes

What I don't know is how well the woofers will do playing the lower bass as I have them crossed over at 70Hz and always intend to use them that way.

After extended listening sessions I have decided that the cone tweeter reproduces the upper treble above 12KHz good enough to where no dome tweeter is necessary.

Don't know if it was just me getting used to the speakers, or the speakers needed a break in period (after possibly not being used for I don't know how long) and/or the new crossover caps.

I suppose the original woofer caps were open or reduced in value or a higher ESR as the woofers sounded better after the caps were replaced.

Overall I am well pleased with the speakers and how they integrate so well with the rest of the system.
 
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I had the 24 system back in the 70s. Pretty nice sounding unit, plus it had the Pickering v15 with the dust brush, if I recall correctly. The speakers were just right for a 15 watt per channel receiver, if my memory serves me right.
 
About a couple weeks ago I decided not to wait for the eBay store to open back up so I tried that stuff I got with the reform kit for another speaker and it smells and looks a lot like Elmer's white school glue which has been thinned somewhat with something.

Please tell me I'm reading this wrong. You didn't use glue to re-dope the surrounds, did you? That's how KLH woofers die. We need something like a Hippocratic Oath for KLH collectors: "first do no harm." Don't even mention, hint, or suggest putting anything on the cloth surrounds until you know who and what you're dealing with. There are only two acceptable choices: 1) do nothing 2) use the butyl/toluene solution developed by RoyC and sold by Vintage AR. Choice 1 will definitely not make anything worse. Choice 2 might make things slightly better. Any other stuff put on the surrounds will make them worse. Even Roy says in most cases doing nothing is probably the right choice (if I'm up to date; I'm pretty sure that was the latest from him). So sad.
 
Well I did the same thing to a set of Model 23 woofers which I ended up having to replace. The 5's and 23's share the same woofer and dig deep so a sub woofer doesn't enter into the equation. A very expensive lesson learned. Maybe since he has the sub woofer crossed at 70hz the sound degradation will be minimal. All I can tell you guys is after I did the no no on the 23 woofers nary a word was typed or spoken. I don't even think I told my wife! :D
 
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