Magnavox Flea Power: Getting More Out Of The 8600 Series - A Lot More!

Thanks for all your hard work on this project Dave.
I just got to the point of getting all the transformers to fit nicely.
There are pics in my thread.
 
I've had a little time today to think more about the regulator-in-the-cathode proposal, and after further thought, I've come to the conclusion that neither a voltage regulator (ala EFB(tm)) NOR a simple current regulator scheme achieves the nirvana that folks are looking for. In fact, the simple resistor comes out looking pretty darn good against both of them. Consider:

1. Using EFB, there would in fact be operating point compensation for differing B+ levels (AC line voltage fluctuations) -- just as a simple cathode resistor will do -- but the initial bias would still have to be manually set for the correct optimum quiescent current flow at a B+ of 265 vdc, FOR EACH TUBE INSTALLED -- just as you need to do with the simple resistive bias controls now shown on the schematic. Therefore, this approach isn't really gaining anything over the adjustable resistive approach now used.

2. A CC cathode regulator will surely keep any and all tubes dialed into the correct optimum quiescent current flow -- no matter what the B+ level does, which is a problem as well. If the B+ drops due to a lower line voltage, the CC regulator will react to keep the current flow through the tube the same as before -- except that with a lower B+ level, maintaining the same quiescent current as specified for the normal B+ level distorts the load line, since the quiescent current can't fall in proportion with the reduced B+ voltage -- which a cathode resistor WILL allow to happen. If the B+ rises above specification, the regulator will again keep the current draw at that required for the specified B+ level, distorting the load line the other way. So using a CC regulator presents its problems as well.

To achieve the nirvana that a CC cathode regulator promises, the B+ to the stage must be regulated as well as its quiescent current. With that voltage held constant at the specified value, and the CC regulator dialed into the correct optimum quiescent current flow, then you can in fact change tubes to your hearts content, and they will always be perfectly biased -- each and every one of them. But understand that this is the ONLY thing this scheme can do (compensate for individual tube characteristics). It can't provide any better performance over that of a properly adjusted cathode resistor, and as discussed earlier, it can't do a very good job of compensating for a circuit that's not designed for true Class A operation to begin with, either. In the end, optimizing this approach starts to get pretty far away from the original concept that the little 8600 represents real fast. Against that, the simple adjustable resistive bias network shown on the updated schematic looks pretty darn attractive -- and particularly so because it can produce just as good of performance as any of the other bias schemes can.

Dave
 
FWIW, I believe Edcor OPT frequency response is listed at the OPT's rated power. Some others I've looked at with wider published FR are given at lower power, like 1 W.
 
Thanks Dave for all that great work!

whoaru99

I kind of got that impression from the diyaudio website also as the 10 & 15W GX SE are well liked by tubelab simple SE users. It has been said for instance that the 15W version gives better than it's 40-18K rating under say half it's power rating use.
 
I can concur, the single ended Edcors are frequency rated at "rated power" there.
(and extremely conservative rated as well)

Running them at half to 3/4 power rating the frequency response is Beyond 20hz to 20k.
 
This thread has been a great (and long) read!
This amp may be the perfect candidate for my "Beauty & the Beast" biamp system as it can also be scratch built, has the right power level and the low price OTs will work just fine.

Thanks Dave for the writeup, it looks like it was a lot of work.

Does anyone here think it would be a poor choice for the HF section of a biamp system going into an econowave speaker? And why? I know some folks here have tried this with limited success.
 
At this power level, and perhaps slightly higher cost, why not go with DHT output for a scratch build?
 
At this power level, and perhaps slightly higher cost, why not go with DHT output for a scratch build?

Why does it have to be one or the other? This amp is a perfect build for folks like me who are not very experienced with amp construction. It uses cheap parts with a design that is not at all fussy and with tech support from a recognized tube master. What's not to like? According to most, to do DHT CORRECTLY requires much more care and attention to detail, not to mention output transformer cost, than many of us are willing or able to deal with at this point. I'm sure many of us will go on to build DHT amps in the future but this EL84 design is right in the wheelhouse of where I am right now.
 
It's just an option to consider, you seem to have already made up your mind and that's fine...
 
It's just an option to consider, you seem to have already made up your mind and that's fine...

Not at all Jaz.. I am very open to the idea of doing a DHT amp at some point, in fact I look forward to it. It's just that I'd like to learn to walk before I start running.
 
For those of us unaware of what a 'DHT' amp is.....I find the comment rather confusing. Not that I don't want to know..... cuz I do. And, if someone would PM me with the details on it, I'd appreciate it. But, not sure this is 'the place' to go into another whole amp-type explanation. WC
 
For those of us unaware of what a 'DHT' amp is.....I find the comment rather confusing. Not that I don't want to know..... cuz I do. And, if someone would PM me with the details on it, I'd appreciate it. But, not sure this is 'the place' to go into another whole amp-type explanation. WC

Directly heated Triode

Like so

2A3
6B4G
300B
211
845
572
811

DHT = The Cathode is the Filament.

IHT = The Cathode and Filament are separate elements.

If you think about it a 2A3 has 4 pins ... One is plate , One is grid and obviously you don't have enough pins for a Separate Cathode and Filament.

Frannie
 
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Thanks Frannie. I'm familiar with the concept..... just hadn't heard the term before. I've done very little with those kinds of tubes..... I do have a pair of 805 mono-blocks. I've learned that there are 2 of those kinds of tubes....those 'with' anode caps, and those without. Mine DO have the anode caps. Seems odd that there are two tubes with the same number like that....but that have a different configuration. Anyway, thanks for the info. WC
 
IMO, the more money you spend on the OPT, the more sense to go with a DHT (except the large transmitting tubes like the 805 or 845 which cost a lot more $ to do right) - they are a world apart from the EL84/6BQ5, again just me 2c...
 
Hey, Dave, I'm doing an update to a 196BA (decided to convert to the DGSE-1 circuit) and I'm short a can cap. However, I have a new 80/40/30/20 @ 525VDC CE Manufacturing can. If I decide to use this, am I safe in putting the 80uF on the second or third stage in the filtering or would that be too much capacitance? It won't be adjacent to the rectifier so that shouldn't be an issue.

Alternately, I have a CE Mfg 50/50/50/50 @ 350VDC can I could use as well, although I'd be a bit concerned about B+ at power-on.

Thanks,

-D
 
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Hi Derek -- Just keep the 80 uF section off of the rectifier, and you should be good to go. Remember, this design is pure Class A, so big uF to get better sound or bass has little meaning or benefit once adequate filtering needs are met. I got away with using the original 40/40/20 can with the addition of a choke, and while filtering was not perfect, it was certainly more than adequate, producing insignificant hum through my Cornwalls (only audible with my ear up against the speaker board). Therefore, either of your cans should work well as long as the 350v can is not over-voltaged, and the 80 uF in the other can is treated as discussed.

Dave
 
Hi Derek -- Just keep the 80 uF section off of the rectifier, and you should be good to go. Remember, this design is pure Class A, so big uF to get better sound or bass has little meaning or benefit once adequate filtering needs are met. I got away with using the original 40/40/20 can with the addition of a choke, and while filtering was not perfect, it was certainly more than adequate, producing insignificant hum through my Cornwalls (only audible with my ear up against the speaker board). Therefore, either of your cans should work well as long as the 350v can is not over-voltaged, and the 80 uF in the other can is treated as discussed.

Dave

Thanks for the sanity check, Dave!

-D
 
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but I made up a 'parts list' for an earlier build, and I think this is pretty accurate. It has been updated by adding the two 50 ohm pots, as well as amending the last stage filter coupling resistor from the original 1.5K to the now 820 ohm (2 watt) version. I believe the list is 'complete', however it does NOT include PT, OTs, filter Cap(s), or chassis. If anyone reads it and sees an error or omission, PLEASE let me know. This is simply an 'excerpt' from a previous note sent sent to a couple other AK'rs who are also looking to build this amp.

EXCERPT BEGINS:

Here's what I believe is needed to build the amp, LESS OPTs, PT, Filter Cap, Chassis:

1) Choke {1.5H \ 200ma \ 56 ohms \ 400V}
6) 470K resistors
4) 10K resistors
2) 150K resistors
2) 820 ohm resistors
2) 120 ohm \ 2 watt resistors
2) 47 ohm resistors
1) 820 ohm 2 watt resistor

2) 300pf mica caps (feedback)
4) .1 uf caps (2 @ 250V {Coupling} 2 @ 100 {Zobel}) I used 4 @ 650V.....
2) 100 uf \ 16V
2) 50 ohm BIAS Pots (I believe these should be a minimum of 1/2 watt)

* If you're PT has a center tap for BOTH the HV AND the filament section, then no 100 ohm resistors are necessary. If NO center tap for filaments, the 2) 100 ohm resistors will also be needed (see Dave's schematic)


END EXCERPT

Hope this is helpful to anyone looking to build this GREAT amp!!

WC
 
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Question please. Is the 8601 the same size in dimension as the 8604 in Dave's amp in this thread? Thanks Al
 
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