My 45 year old system is new again!

Alobar

Addicted Member
I have written about my main system before on here, JBL L200's and Kenwood 700 series. It has been with me since I bought them new in the mid 70's and I have so much sentimental value over it I wouldn't ever sell. But there has been times when I have thought about it..

That started when I bought a pair of little active JBL LSR 305's and was rather amazed at how clean, tight, and low the bass was on those little speakers! Only 5" woofers, it didn't seem possible that they could nearly best my 15's in the L200! Since then I had become increasingly dissatisfied with the bass out of my big JBL's. I have since new always ran them with max loudness on, and even a few clicks on the bass just to compensate I guess..

Anyway about a year ago I started discussing L200's with a AK member and now friend @nedseg specifically about addressing the bass (or lack of) with the L200. He also, like me bought his pair back in the 70's new and has hung onto them throughout the years. Well he did his research, had a plan and we talked about how cool it would be to put a modern JBL LF driver, specifically the one out of the JBL 4367 into the L200.

I thought it would be great in sort of a pie in the sky kind of way, but never seriously thought I would spend that kind of coin on 45 year old speakers. But then one day he just ordered one, just to try to see if his thoughts on it were right or not. When it came, it was like a match made in heaven, even the screw holes matched perfectly!

Well his reports were so glowing I decided to order a pair myself and from Speaker Exchange, a new 2216Nd1 sells for $600, plus 70 shipping to Alaska.. So not being able to sit back and listen to him go on about them I had to do this! That set me off on a bit of a money spending journey...

When they came it was a 10 minute install job with a cordless. Out came the old LE15B's and in with the 2216Nd1's. Immediately, even with a crossover mismatch I KNEW I had a winner there. The sound was more than I could have hoped for.. Deep tight bass was the result for these old "boomboxes" as Zilch used to call them..

But I knew there would be improvements if I were to address the crossover issue. What I did was to just biamp it, with a MiniDSP, and a Yamaha A-S301 (a perfect match tonally for the Kenwood).

Once that was together I started to learn how to correct speakers like mine by taking frequency sweeps of each driver at 1", and at 1', and all together at 1 meter. I averaged them in REW and let "the wizard" perform its magic.. It came out with 10 PEQ's which I entered manually in the Mini DSP and the sound was pretty good, better than before with the LX16 passive, but I wasn't that happy with the frequency sweep at my listening chair. So I have been working on that with room PEQ's and think I have really made strides.. Here is the latest sweep taken this morning..

Capture.JPG
I am now actually flat to 30db and just a 3db dip at 25db! Compared to what I had before, needless to say this is pretty extraordinary to me! No subs needed at this house! Running now with the loudness switched off, all tone controls flat and I am still getting used to the bass, as well as the clarity I am getting in the lower mid range too. It is like hearing so much more music that was hidden before!

Pictures..
The mighty JBL 2216Nd1
Capture1.JPG Capture5.JPG Capture6.JPG Capture4.JPG
 
Great job of 'hammering out the dents' in the REW plots - yay!!!
Another thing we've both noticed is that with these drivers, the bass seems to travel a lot farther (or be more noticeable) 'off-axis' or elsewhere in the house (that in particular). Not that the LE15Bs were bass shy at all, but....
PS. Here are my early measurements (@1cm) of the LE15B and the new 2216ND, crossed over at 30hz and 1khz, and with No EQ at all.
Since then I've lowered the crossover to 25hz, and am starting to add EQ to the low end.
Alobar has been more persistent with REW tuning that I, by far - but I think my listening room has fewer 'dents' to pull.
le15 1cm no eq.jpg 2216nd 1cm no eq.jpg
 
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Really, that's quite amazing that one could drop those in and receive the kinds of results you guys have without modification to the stock crossover network. The net results are a great example of modern technology being put to good use.

As measured stock, 25dB down at 30Hz suggests that the L200 is better paired with something like a B460 to get flat(ter) response. Was that the original intent? OOC, what's the Fs and Vas of the LE15B?
 
I don't think JBL ever published Fs and Vas for the 15B (A, yes).
Those plots are just the very first measurements, taken just minutes after I installed them, and do not include port mic'ing.
Later measurements showed much deeper response, similar to Alobar's.
See my write up at
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....s-jbl-2216nd-1-in-l200s.830641/#post-11831944
for more detail.
The NDs used in M2s (DIY) usually have a bit of EQ added, esp around 25-30hz - but I haven't added that yet (or felt they needed it).
I looked at the B460, but ended up with a 4645C instead - this upgraded L200 goes deeper, and cleaner than that (but the big guy does have more Slam!).
 
Really, that's quite amazing that one could drop those in and receive the kinds of results you guys have without modification to the stock crossover network. The net results are a great example of modern technology being put to good use.

As measured stock, 25dB down at 30Hz suggests that the L200 is better paired with something like a B460 to get flat(ter) response. Was that the original intent? OOC, what's the Fs and Vas of the LE15B?
Currently I am running the 2216Nd's straight off the amp with the MiniDSP crossover set at 20hz and 1150hz and this is a considerably better arrangement than when I first installed these and used the existing L200 passive crossover. Now I am still using the old passive but just for the HF drivers and eventually want to change that part of it. Most of the technical aspects I am not that up to speed about although I am learning. Nedseg has been my go to on some of this but one thing he mentioned early on when we were just talking about this mod was how similar in volume the 4367 was to the L200, and even the ports were quite similar. Of course no slip streaming of the ports for the L200..

There are things about the 4367 that we can't easily recreate, and how much of a difference those make is unknown. For instance, the 4367 has a pretty sophisticated passive crossover that crosses at 700hz and I don't see a way to incorporate that with the LE85 compression driverwhich probably won't play that low. Still the 2216 seems to play to 1200hz just fine and sounds fantastic without the 4367 crossover. Not trying to make a poor mans 4367 here, just looking for a significant bump in performance for a 45 year old speaker which I believe we were very successful at.
 
I was reminded of this old thread that I started over a year ago and thought I could do a little update on it. Since this thread op, I have replaced the minidsp 2x4hd with a mini 4x10hd and am now fully triamped with the addition of a second Yamaha as-301. This, with more sweeps got me as flat FR wise as before, but once I fed the minidsp direct Digital from the source (I only listen to digital these days) which effectively eliminated 2 digital/analog conversions, the difference was once again a big step up! Now I am experiencing much greater imaging than before, clarity is greatly improved as well. It just keeps coming back to me just how much I appreciate these old speakers..

As for the little Yamaha's, they are just awesome, no matter the price, and the perfect choice for my budget @$299 each on Amazon (referbished). I really like the tone control bypass feature which is how I use them. They, with their dedicated respective frequencies of 1.2 to 8khz, and 8khz up, actually had to have their auto shutdown feature disabled, which switches the units off if it doesn't detect use.. They are putting out so little power it wouldn't register with the power down circuit that they are even in use! Definitely do not need more power than what I have now.. :)
 
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