nedseg
Well-Known Member
AKA: L200s in the 21st century - or "M200"s?!!
Short story long, sorry.
What follows is simply my stumbling attempts to improve my JBL L200s - I have a strong background in electronics, but just got sick of it after 15yrs or so of 'bench time', and moved on. As it turns out, I didn't have to fire up a soldering iron at all in my quest! (So far
So. When I retired 3yrs ago, I got curious about my ancient L200s, which were modified by JBL techs in the 70s to add the N8000 crossovers and 077s, so have been 3-ways for decades.
I quickly discovered many had worked on improvements to these speakers over the years, most notably for the woofers (though mine were still in great shape.)
The bass response had always 'bugged' me, partly from listening, and partly from many other negative comments I'd read. To their credit, they do 'woody' very nicely, IMO. I still like them for what they are.
At the same time, I wasn't all that enamored with the recommended 2235 replacement, I'd heard 'em once I think (maybe), and thought they were too costly (used!) for what I wanted to achieve.
Then I started reading rave threads about the M2, then DIY M2s, then the 4367, and began to get crazy ideas in my head. Then someone said something about a '15' drivers in a 5cu ft box' in the M2 DIY thread...and I was OFF.
Today, after 3 years of reading, taking many notes, much thinking and pondering, and following the breadcrumbs of others far more knowlegable and experienced than I, I've landed on what I think of as the "perfect" L200s.
More on that in a moment...
First, many thanks to Alobar, with whom I have had many diverse conversations about this challenge.
Also, to SRM51555 (Scott, who started the DIY M2 thread over on LH) for inviting me into his home for extended listening sessions of his 2216ND M2 clones, which confirmed my 'suspicions' about M2 = 'bass done right'...AND his ongoing support, technical knowledge and encouragement/patience to 'proceed, already'! (His 'M2's are freaking amazing!!)
And of course it's not possible to thank enough the other JBL greats who have posted on this and many diverse and related topics over the years! (Just finished reading a thread dated 2006, and still gaining insight!).
Zilch (RIP) of course, and Toddalin, the L200 magician, and Heather, the indefatigable experimenter, Mr. Widget...and so many many other super experts here and over at LH!!
Thanks so much for sharing!!
I think I've accumulated something like 20 pages of notes and links that I kept pouring over like clues to a murder mystery!
And also, sort of 'in remembrance'; the great folks at the JBL dealership in town that held my hand through so many upgrades and amp choices - no longer in business, sadly.
So. What?
Bottom line:
I replaced one of the original LE15B (2216) 15" woofers with a new 2216ND-1 as used in the 4367s, and the result Absolutely Blows My Mind!!
(More on that in a bit.)
Eventually, I determined an upgrade path that I could 'buy' up to, slowly as funds permitted, and allowed/hoped for 'cheapest things first' might get me there' (nope).
All told, this has been a nearly 3 year project, mostly funding limited!
I actually bought a spare pair of very nice used LE15Bs, thinking perhaps of having them reconed and re-mag'd, but of course right after they arrived, the 'M2 woofer' light bulb went on!
Here's how I went about it:
Step 1) Passive Bi-amp.
I split the connection between the original LX16 and N8000s (MF+HF), and drove them with separate amps.
Slight, but barely noticeable improvement.
However, at this stage, I confirmed (via REW) that at least one of the orginal LX16s was not funtioning correctly, so I simply removed them from the circuit and drove the LE15Bs directly from the amp. This also added more slight improvement, but probably not worth the cost of the extra new amp.
Step 2) Active Bi-amp w/electronic crossovers.
I chose the dbx Venu 360 - largely thanks to the enthusiastic posts by 'NCWGrad' over on LH.
(About this time I also stumbled upon a dirt cheap, nearly unused 4645C subwoofer (thinking maybe That would 'solve' my bass dilemna - well, No. But it did get me Other Goodnesses
The Venu 360 provides 3 inputs and 6 outputs - one more than I needed - and has an app that runs on just about every OS, in addition to many addtional features.
That app allows for real time changes in crossovers and PEQ/GEQ/EQ settings, making it very easy to hear changes made 'live', and for taking many REW samples (too many, really).
It also has it's own RTA mic and autoeq functions...helpful in 'verifying' REW results.
Otherwise, it's kind of gross overkill, but what the heck...has many pretty dancing lights, too!!
Running it on a Win10 tablet, Wifi to the Venu, is a real hoot - nothing like dragging curves around with your fingers until it 'hertz' (hah hah!).
I crossed the LE15B over at 30hz and 1000hz to the N8000 (horn and 077).
This, along with a handful of REW & Venu determined PEQs, made for some pretty nice improvements - at this point, while the bass still wasn't the 'tight and deep' I wanted, as a whole it did start to sound pretty dang good.
Step 3) Replace the LE15B with a new 2216ND-1.
I knew from pictures and discussions with Scott, that the 2216ND-1 was likely going to be a pretty good 'fit' in the L200 baffle hole, and thought 'maybe' it wouldn't take too much routering to get it in there.
Boy was I pleased, when the thing arrived, and it just dropped right in place!
Same screw holes (even re-installed the orginal screws and o-ring!).
Granted, it's surface mounted, rather than recessed, as in the M2 or 4367, but what the heck...it's not like the L200 has anything close to a non-reflective baffle setup!
Total upgrade time for the swap out of one speaker? Maybe 5 minutes.
(After 3 GD years of planning, thinking through the 'what if it goes wrong' Plan Bs,Cs, etc, and agonizing over the expense -- what, really, 5 minutes??)
So far, I've only had the funds to upgrade one cabinet, but in a way it's useful, as I get to compare the differences every time I listen!! And I've been doing a LOT of listening - it's like discovering all my favorite music all over again!
What are the results?
I spent a lot of time in my 20s with 4355s and L300s, and have to admit that my first thought was: 'L300 killers!!'
Ok, so that's hyperbole, but really, the improvement is nothing short of astonishing.
I'd say these very nearly match the bass performance of Scott's DIY M2s - way better, in fact, than was my wildest hope - I would have been very happy with even minor improvements.
And even with the orginal short horn, this now seems to me to be cleaner & deeper than I remember L300s ever being.
Very tight, very deep, crossed over at 30hz, and they do in fact go that deep - cleanly and very smoothly. Astounding.
What really amazed me however - and was totally unexpected - was the equally dramatic improvement in the lower midrange, and even the perception of the upper MF & HF!
It's as if it somehow smoothed out the horn and 077 response while it was 'at it'.
(I left my previously developed PEQs for that range unchanged.)
Huh.
The effect on female vocalists (Toddalin has written at some length about this) was to 'open up' the sound, and to clarify and 'de-harshify' voices and other instruments in that range. Added 'precision'?
Well, 'tinkly stuff' sounds clearer and less harsh, than ever before. Lovely.
Given that these are crossed to the N8000 at 1khz in the Venu, I'm a little puzzled by the range of the improvements - I speculate that I'm now hearing fundamental tones that have harmonics in upper ranges that were not 'assembled' properly before? Guessing.
(I've run the crossover from 800hz to 1.2khz, and could not distinguish any great differences, oddly enough. Gain setting changes however, were very noticeable. I've left it at 1khz, for now.)
It's very much as if I have a brand new speaker, and I continue to listen in depth nearly every day discovering new notes, instruments, and timbre's that I'd never heard before.
Oh, and one other dramatic improvement - imaging.
I now get (even with just one!) a very clear stereo image, which previously was pretty murky.
I have an 8 channel system, which I tended to listen to in simulated surround mode (Neo 6) in order to get a 'better', 'more fun' image (I just happen to have a pretty non-reflective room, too.)
With just this one woofer upgraded, I now get a much cleaner, sharper image than anything but DSD/Bluray multichannel tracks, and now listen primarily in stereo mode again.
Perhaps due to 'warned of' 'beaming' of the 2216ND-1 above 700 hz? Maybe.
Final thoughts/caveats:
- My goal has just been to make these 'sound as good as I knew they could' - I'm not looking for perfection, or the ideal speaker, by any means. It's just 'what I had' and have been lugging around for 40+ years, and just really liked them. Pet turtles? Jurassic Park? New DNA sure works, in this case!
At this point, I think I'm Done. (Well, one more ND-1 to go.)
Time to just relax and Play Music, which is all I ever really wanted - don't really care who has the biggest or prettiest amp, or fanciest setup (tho I can appreciate them!)...I Just Like Music.
But...I do wonder what a new (Toddalin!) crossover paired with a 4367 LF crossover (~$300 ea!) might sound like, esp with a high quality DAC and no DSP (the Venu is a 96k DSP).
- While I have been taking REW measurements close mic'd and at listening distances, the initial results for the new woof are so flat and clean that I've chosen to not apply any PEQs in the 30-1khz region, and am so stonkered by the results that I'm not hugely incentivized to do a lot more measurements...but probably will, someday.
I'd expected to have to apply the DIY M2 PEQs that had been developed by others, but...nope, not so far...may do it someday for kicks, but most of them are pretty small, actually.
- Ports. I ran some calculations, and found the existing ones appear to be tuned for pretty close to 30hz, so I just left them both open. I tried closing one off, and it lessened the depth of the bass response. I was concerned that might be a major issue. Not.
- Subwoofer: I now have the 4645C 'band passed' at 25hz to 45hz...that's a LOT of cabinet & amp for just 20hz of 'coverage', but it does go slightly deeper (if not as 'sharply') than the 2216ND-1, and definitely can go LOUDER...great for SLAMS!!
But, strictly speaking, not really still necessary, other than for special instruments, electronics, organ, and moovies
- I can't wait to do the other one, but funds are extremely tight this year, so may have to wait until fall.
- Anybody wanna buy some nice, gently used LE15Bs? I have two spare pairs!! <grin>
Hope this helps other L200 aficionados out there!
PS. Now I have to wonder what one of these might sound like in an L300
Short story long, sorry.
What follows is simply my stumbling attempts to improve my JBL L200s - I have a strong background in electronics, but just got sick of it after 15yrs or so of 'bench time', and moved on. As it turns out, I didn't have to fire up a soldering iron at all in my quest! (So far
So. When I retired 3yrs ago, I got curious about my ancient L200s, which were modified by JBL techs in the 70s to add the N8000 crossovers and 077s, so have been 3-ways for decades.
I quickly discovered many had worked on improvements to these speakers over the years, most notably for the woofers (though mine were still in great shape.)
The bass response had always 'bugged' me, partly from listening, and partly from many other negative comments I'd read. To their credit, they do 'woody' very nicely, IMO.
I still like them for what they are.At the same time, I wasn't all that enamored with the recommended 2235 replacement, I'd heard 'em once I think (maybe), and thought they were too costly (used!) for what I wanted to achieve.
Then I started reading rave threads about the M2, then DIY M2s, then the 4367, and began to get crazy ideas in my head. Then someone said something about a '15' drivers in a 5cu ft box' in the M2 DIY thread...and I was OFF.
Today, after 3 years of reading, taking many notes, much thinking and pondering, and following the breadcrumbs of others far more knowlegable and experienced than I, I've landed on what I think of as the "perfect" L200s.
More on that in a moment...
First, many thanks to Alobar, with whom I have had many diverse conversations about this challenge.
Also, to SRM51555 (Scott, who started the DIY M2 thread over on LH) for inviting me into his home for extended listening sessions of his 2216ND M2 clones, which confirmed my 'suspicions' about M2 = 'bass done right'...AND his ongoing support, technical knowledge and encouragement/patience to 'proceed, already'! (His 'M2's are freaking amazing!!)
And of course it's not possible to thank enough the other JBL greats who have posted on this and many diverse and related topics over the years! (Just finished reading a thread dated 2006, and still gaining insight!).
Zilch (RIP) of course, and Toddalin, the L200 magician, and Heather, the indefatigable experimenter, Mr. Widget...and so many many other super experts here and over at LH!!
Thanks so much for sharing!!
I think I've accumulated something like 20 pages of notes and links that I kept pouring over like clues to a murder mystery!
And also, sort of 'in remembrance'; the great folks at the JBL dealership in town that held my hand through so many upgrades and amp choices - no longer in business, sadly.
So. What?
Bottom line:
I replaced one of the original LE15B (2216) 15" woofers with a new 2216ND-1 as used in the 4367s, and the result Absolutely Blows My Mind!!
(More on that in a bit.)
Eventually, I determined an upgrade path that I could 'buy' up to, slowly as funds permitted, and allowed/hoped for 'cheapest things first' might get me there' (nope).
All told, this has been a nearly 3 year project, mostly funding limited!
I actually bought a spare pair of very nice used LE15Bs, thinking perhaps of having them reconed and re-mag'd, but of course right after they arrived, the 'M2 woofer' light bulb went on!
Here's how I went about it:
Step 1) Passive Bi-amp.
I split the connection between the original LX16 and N8000s (MF+HF), and drove them with separate amps.
Slight, but barely noticeable improvement.
However, at this stage, I confirmed (via REW) that at least one of the orginal LX16s was not funtioning correctly, so I simply removed them from the circuit and drove the LE15Bs directly from the amp. This also added more slight improvement, but probably not worth the cost of the extra new amp.
Step 2) Active Bi-amp w/electronic crossovers.
I chose the dbx Venu 360 - largely thanks to the enthusiastic posts by 'NCWGrad' over on LH.
(About this time I also stumbled upon a dirt cheap, nearly unused 4645C subwoofer (thinking maybe That would 'solve' my bass dilemna - well, No. But it did get me Other Goodnesses
The Venu 360 provides 3 inputs and 6 outputs - one more than I needed - and has an app that runs on just about every OS, in addition to many addtional features.
That app allows for real time changes in crossovers and PEQ/GEQ/EQ settings, making it very easy to hear changes made 'live', and for taking many REW samples (too many, really).
It also has it's own RTA mic and autoeq functions...helpful in 'verifying' REW results.
Otherwise, it's kind of gross overkill, but what the heck...has many pretty dancing lights, too!!
Running it on a Win10 tablet, Wifi to the Venu, is a real hoot - nothing like dragging curves around with your fingers until it 'hertz' (hah hah!).
I crossed the LE15B over at 30hz and 1000hz to the N8000 (horn and 077).
This, along with a handful of REW & Venu determined PEQs, made for some pretty nice improvements - at this point, while the bass still wasn't the 'tight and deep' I wanted, as a whole it did start to sound pretty dang good.
Step 3) Replace the LE15B with a new 2216ND-1.
I knew from pictures and discussions with Scott, that the 2216ND-1 was likely going to be a pretty good 'fit' in the L200 baffle hole, and thought 'maybe' it wouldn't take too much routering to get it in there.
Boy was I pleased, when the thing arrived, and it just dropped right in place!
Same screw holes (even re-installed the orginal screws and o-ring!).
Granted, it's surface mounted, rather than recessed, as in the M2 or 4367, but what the heck...it's not like the L200 has anything close to a non-reflective baffle setup!
Total upgrade time for the swap out of one speaker? Maybe 5 minutes.
(After 3 GD years of planning, thinking through the 'what if it goes wrong' Plan Bs,Cs, etc, and agonizing over the expense -- what, really, 5 minutes??)
So far, I've only had the funds to upgrade one cabinet, but in a way it's useful, as I get to compare the differences every time I listen!! And I've been doing a LOT of listening - it's like discovering all my favorite music all over again!
What are the results?
I spent a lot of time in my 20s with 4355s and L300s, and have to admit that my first thought was: 'L300 killers!!'
Ok, so that's hyperbole, but really, the improvement is nothing short of astonishing.
I'd say these very nearly match the bass performance of Scott's DIY M2s - way better, in fact, than was my wildest hope - I would have been very happy with even minor improvements.
And even with the orginal short horn, this now seems to me to be cleaner & deeper than I remember L300s ever being.
Very tight, very deep, crossed over at 30hz, and they do in fact go that deep - cleanly and very smoothly. Astounding.
What really amazed me however - and was totally unexpected - was the equally dramatic improvement in the lower midrange, and even the perception of the upper MF & HF!
It's as if it somehow smoothed out the horn and 077 response while it was 'at it'.
(I left my previously developed PEQs for that range unchanged.)
Huh.
The effect on female vocalists (Toddalin has written at some length about this) was to 'open up' the sound, and to clarify and 'de-harshify' voices and other instruments in that range. Added 'precision'?
Well, 'tinkly stuff' sounds clearer and less harsh, than ever before. Lovely.
Given that these are crossed to the N8000 at 1khz in the Venu, I'm a little puzzled by the range of the improvements - I speculate that I'm now hearing fundamental tones that have harmonics in upper ranges that were not 'assembled' properly before? Guessing.
(I've run the crossover from 800hz to 1.2khz, and could not distinguish any great differences, oddly enough. Gain setting changes however, were very noticeable. I've left it at 1khz, for now.)
It's very much as if I have a brand new speaker, and I continue to listen in depth nearly every day discovering new notes, instruments, and timbre's that I'd never heard before.
Oh, and one other dramatic improvement - imaging.
I now get (even with just one!) a very clear stereo image, which previously was pretty murky.
I have an 8 channel system, which I tended to listen to in simulated surround mode (Neo 6) in order to get a 'better', 'more fun' image (I just happen to have a pretty non-reflective room, too.)
With just this one woofer upgraded, I now get a much cleaner, sharper image than anything but DSD/Bluray multichannel tracks, and now listen primarily in stereo mode again.
Perhaps due to 'warned of' 'beaming' of the 2216ND-1 above 700 hz? Maybe.
Final thoughts/caveats:
- My goal has just been to make these 'sound as good as I knew they could' - I'm not looking for perfection, or the ideal speaker, by any means. It's just 'what I had' and have been lugging around for 40+ years, and just really liked them. Pet turtles? Jurassic Park? New DNA sure works, in this case!
At this point, I think I'm Done. (Well, one more ND-1 to go.)
Time to just relax and Play Music, which is all I ever really wanted - don't really care who has the biggest or prettiest amp, or fanciest setup (tho I can appreciate them!)...I Just Like Music.
But...I do wonder what a new (Toddalin!) crossover paired with a 4367 LF crossover (~$300 ea!) might sound like, esp with a high quality DAC and no DSP (the Venu is a 96k DSP).
- While I have been taking REW measurements close mic'd and at listening distances, the initial results for the new woof are so flat and clean that I've chosen to not apply any PEQs in the 30-1khz region, and am so stonkered by the results that I'm not hugely incentivized to do a lot more measurements...but probably will, someday.
I'd expected to have to apply the DIY M2 PEQs that had been developed by others, but...nope, not so far...may do it someday for kicks, but most of them are pretty small, actually.
- Ports. I ran some calculations, and found the existing ones appear to be tuned for pretty close to 30hz, so I just left them both open. I tried closing one off, and it lessened the depth of the bass response. I was concerned that might be a major issue. Not.
- Subwoofer: I now have the 4645C 'band passed' at 25hz to 45hz...that's a LOT of cabinet & amp for just 20hz of 'coverage', but it does go slightly deeper (if not as 'sharply') than the 2216ND-1, and definitely can go LOUDER...great for SLAMS!!
But, strictly speaking, not really still necessary, other than for special instruments, electronics, organ, and moovies
- I can't wait to do the other one, but funds are extremely tight this year, so may have to wait until fall.
- Anybody wanna buy some nice, gently used LE15Bs? I have two spare pairs!! <grin>
Hope this helps other L200 aficionados out there!
PS. Now I have to wonder what one of these might sound like in an L300
