Regard Clearaudio Magix as a must have accessory for Yamaha GT 2000.

[theophile]

Those poor souls who suffer my postings on AudioKarma(regard yourself as one of them....)will recall(suffer nightmares about even)my penchant for magnetic levitation of source components(after all the poor attempts at humour the mention of magnetic levitation has just turned-off thousands of potential readers...).
However,I am serious(well,as serious as I can be).

Due to the fact that my SAP(yes this is serious)Relaxa 3+ mag-lev platform cannot support the weight of my Yamaha GT 2000,I decided to drop a wad of cash(lots of cash)on 8(you read that right..8)Clearaudio Magix.

Just getting these things was a trial in itself(I won't bore you with the details.I will bore you though).It took nearly 5 monthsfor me to get them, from go to whoa(and there was lots of woe before I got to whoa).
I hate moving my GT 2000,because it's a friggin' heavy turntable.The promise of an improvement in performance on offer to an already amazing turntable, was the motivation which had me biting the bullet and doing the deed within half of an hour of getting these things home from the Post Office.

I was a little-bit disappointed upon spinning the first licorice pizza.It all sounded worse.Not gross,but distinctly bass light and not even up to the level of performance that I was accustomed-to hearing from this player.Recalling that when Audio Asylum poster 'Zog' was doing his 'Isolation Products Binge' and trialling the SAP Relaxa,that he found the breakthrough when he removed the fifth footer from the Relaxa.
In other words Zog found that the mag-lev footers needed to be loaded-down by the component to unlock the untapped potential of the stand.The only thing I had to-hand was a slab of marble which had served as the top plate of a Lazy-Susan.Thankfully this was able to slide under the GT 2000,because the Boston Audio Tune-Blocks which I use to support the '2000,elevate the '2000 sufficiently higher than the stock GT 2000 feet to enable the Lazy Susan marble to slide under it.
The initial impression of loading the Magix down was immediately positive.Now I was getting somewhere.:thmbsp:
Further experimentation has shown that where the marble item was exactly located underneath the turntable had it's own influence upon the perceived end-result.
I'm leaving the marble bit where it is for the moment,and I'll experiment a little more with some additional weight,just to see whether there may be more to be gained from loading the Magix down further still.
What I can say,is that if one has invested in a decent turntable I can recommend these(not cheap)footers for the contribution they make,because it is not subtle.
Some pics:
The first is just to show the Magix under the '2000.
The second is of the Boston Audio Tuneblocks SE(and Tuneplates).
The last photo is of the marble weight.

 

[treserious]

styrene?? really?

 

[BrocLuno]

Why so many? If loading is what you're after, why not reduce the count so each is loaded harder? Maybe three or four max?

By the way, I'm a big fan of marble as a dense vibration absorbing medium. I suspect that a cut sheet say a cm thick as an intermediate plane might be very helpful all around

 

[theophile]

Why so many? If loading is what you're after, why not reduce the count so each is loaded harder? Maybe three or four max?

By the way, I'm a big fan of marble as a dense vibration absorbing medium. I suspect that a cut sheet say a cm thick as an intermediate plane might be very helpful all around

Broc,
The reason I got 8 of them,was that they are rated to carry 10-12 pounds each and my GT 2000 is specified to weigh around 60 or so pounds.Having read Zog's thoughts on AA about the SAP mag-lev stand needing to be used at the top of it's range,the maximum rated carrying capacity,I wanted at least six therefore.However there were reports that the rated weight bearing capability of the Magix were exaggerated,and that they were better considered to be capable or optimum in the 8-10 pound range per footer.
So there was the quandary.
They supposedly needed to be used at,or near,the top limit of their load bearing capability,and there was uncertainty as to exactly what that was.

I didn't want to overload the Magix because they would be ineffective,so I decided to go for 8,which would put me 'in the ballpark' should they only be capable of bearing 8 pounds per footer(remember that the footers were going to bear the weight of the glass/polystyrene shelf also),plus if they really were capable of bearing 10-12 pounds per footer,I could mass-load the shelf.
I had to go over the number of Magix that the simple 10 pounds rating indicated(6 in other words)in order to have a load capacity margin which I could load-down later .
I have since my previous posting loaded the Magix down further to good effect.
I looked underneath the glass/styrene shelf,and noticed that the Magix at the front were almost fully compressed and that the ones at the rear had a greater margin of useful piston travel.
I went to a local fishing wares supplier and bought four little plastic hook boxes and some lead sinkers.I decided to experiment with putting sinkers in the boxes and distributing the boxes on the shelf.Because the weight in a component isn't perfectly centered in the diagonal center of a component,the way that the load is borne by the Magix is similarly not automatically evenly distributed.
I used the lead weights in the plastic boxes by placing the boxes in the corners of the shelf where the weight needed to go,in order to redistribute the load evenly across the Magix.
Th result is a very nice further lift in the sound quality.
Though the Magix are not cheap,(Mine cost $195 each from a US supplier,so there was a $200 freight cost as well)having heard the result,I would not go back to where I was before.
Never.
The contribution of the Magix is in my opinion crucial to releasing the true potential of all the components which make-up my Source component:
The GT 2000,the Soundsmith Voice Ebony and the Simaudio Moon L5.3 phono stage.
My total expenditure on those components has been not trivial(though not astronomic),however the also not trivial expenditure on the Magix has given me access to a level of performance/abilty which had been untapped/unrealised prior to the introduction of the Magix.... :scratch2: :yes:
A successful expenditure?

Absolutely. :yes: :thmbsp:

styrene?? really?

Mainly used to damp somewhat any resonance which might propagate within the glass shelf.The broad flat surface of both the glass and the polystryrene means that they contact over a large area,which better facilitates the damping of the glass.

 

[theophile]

Further fine tuning has bumped the performance-up to unexpected levels.
Frankly,I've never heard reproduced sound this good in my life.....

If you've got a high performance,heavy,non suspended turntable,you have to try these. :yes:
Without them,you haven't scratched the surface of what your turntable is capable of.
There is so much resolution in those grooves,that generally goes unresolved.

If there are any AK linked vendors who sell these things,Go for it. :thmbsp:

 

[Arkay]

Why do I see this constant, swirling whirlpool sucking money out of my budget, month after month for years to come, whenever I start to think about the system I "should" build? And why does this thread just increase the size of this already huge, sucking maelstrom?

Seriously, thanks for posting about this. For the new GT-2000, I'll definitely look into the Magix, as well as other forms of magnetic suspension. A couple of questions:

1. Can one safely assume that due to the absence of any physical contact, this type of suspension would be superior, even to a Minus-K type platform, or would the platform/table still be preferable?

2. Could you describe in any meaningful terms the differences that are "not subtle"? I gather adding the Magix increased detail, and usually greater detail means enhanced realism, clearer soundstage, etc... but was there anything specific that you could describe?

Thank you for your ongoing experiments with the GT-2000, and posting about them here. All of us following in your footsteps with tweaking these great TTs will only benefit from your experience.

 

[theophile]

Arkay,
I look upon owning a top-class turntable in much the same manner as one would have to look at owning a top-class car,boat,plane etc.

To get the best out of them costs money. :yes:

The GT 2000 is one thing that you can put on a level surface and get great performance,it has more to offer should one care to spend the time and effort and money.

About the Magix:They are effectively 'magnetic springs',They have a frequency at which the spring resonates.The tuning of that spring is determined by the load placed upon it.Here's where it gets trickythe optimum isolation capability of numerous Magix,depends upon them ALL being compressed to the same degree.Meaning that they are all isolating the same bandwidth.The trouble is that being a magnetic spring,they therefore have to be moved-around until they can all be seen to have an equal degree of compression.That is the evidence that the load is being shared equally by each Magix and that they are each isolating from the same frequency.

What do I hear from the GT 2000 when the magix are optimised?everything is better.You name a distinguishable parameter;soundstage,imaging,dynamics,resolution,timbre etc,etc,etc.They all take a step-forward.

Evrything that the turntable does well,it does better when the Magix are optimised.

 

[Mr. Lin]

Arkay,
I look upon owning a top-class turntable in much the same manner as one would have to look at owning a top-class car,boat,plane etc.

To get the best out of them costs money. :yes:

[/I].

And takes perseverance and patience. This sounds like a tricky thing to get right, but obviously well worth it. Thanks for sharing, I'd never heard anything about the Magix besides the manufacturer's description.

 

[theophile]

Just a little more on this subject.

I will admit,I have had an interest in the 'mag-lev' method of isolation for a long time.The idea of no physical contact,just the 'field' doing the isolating,seems intuitively the achievement of the impossible ideal.

It was reading a long-running series of posts on Audio Asylum by poster 'Zog' which pushed me in this direction.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/searc...ssage=&sort=score&sortOrder=DESC&forum=tweaks

In my last post I mentioned that the frequency from which the isolation commences,is determined by the load which is placed upon the footer(s).What this amounts to in practice,is that the footers must be loaded-down.Indeed they have to be loaded-down to within a 'hair' of no longer isolating.

As is my everlasting blessing and curse(that of desiring to experiment with ways to further optimise what I already have),I went back to 'scratch' with my turntable siting tonight,because I wanted to experiment with a new method of isolation which I wanted to use in conjunction with the Clearaudio Magix.I'm not revealing what it is,mainly because you guys would think I am loony,or should I say,loonier than you already think I am.What I did however while I was starting from scratch,was to try and load the Magix down as completely as I could.

As I said in my last post,the fact that the Magix are quite akin to floating in mid-air,makes attaining an equal amount of compression on each footer only attainable by scrutiny of the amount of compression which has taken place,coupled-with moving either the footers around or conversely moving the component around.

If you have ever tried moving the Yamaha GT 2000 around,you will know that it is an ambition which is easier considered than carried-out. :tears:

Since moving is the difficult part,I opt for moving the footers. :thmbsp:
Auxillary-weights are also used to effectively shift around the overall center of gravity.With the new(unrevealed by me) method I am now using in conjunction with the Magix,I have had to(out of necessity)dispense with a piece of marble I have been previously able to move around under the 2000 in order to achieve that shifting of the center of gravity.This meant that the load on the Magix was no longer as heavy as it previously was.I used this situation to once again assess the effect that loading-down the Magix has on the sound.The previously mentioned posts by 'Zog' on AA conluded that the mag-lev devices need to be fully-loaded.My conclusions are exactly the same.The difference between(let's say) 90% loaded-down and 97% loaded-down is pretty big.A lot of sonic improvement ensues from getting the footers as fully compressed as possible.Who knows,this may even be the case between the final few percent as well.The use of auxilliary weights assists here,so I may well try adding smidgens at a time.

I wonder how many people have tried the mag-lev method and been somewhat dissapointed because they neither tried to achieve an equal amount of compressing across the number of footers used,nor did they persist in almost fully compressing the footers. :scratch2:

I feel that attention paid to both of those elements is crucial to unlocking just what the mag-lev method is able to achieve. :yes:

 

[Arkay]

...
As I said in my last post,the fact that the Magix are quite akin to floating in mid-air,makes attaining an equal amount of compression on each footer only attainable by scrutiny of the amount of compression which has taken place,coupled-with moving either the footers around or conversely moving the component around.

If you have ever tried moving the Yamaha GT 2000 around,you will know that it is an ambition which is easier considered than carried-out. :tears:

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Having briefly lifted mine, just to see what it felt like, I can really appreciate this! I'm NOT looking forward to carrying this the 1/2 block or so, and down and up a few flights of stairs, that will be needed to bring it home to my living room! I'd put it on a trolley/dolly, but I don't want to risk the vibration. I might enlist help, but if they other person dropped their end, or caused me to drop mine, I'd have to :twak: :uzi: them.


Thanks for sharing your observations about magnetic levitation. The other day, I reminded the guy from the surplus place here that I had asked him quite a while back about isolation tables. He admitted that he'd been too busy and forgotten when one passed through his hands recently. All he could tell me was that it was electric (it plugged into the wall) and fairly large. Arghh! My fault, though, as I had mentioned it quite a while back, and never reminded him. This time, I made sure that both he and the woman there KNOW that I WANT the next one, and they should call me. They don't get them very often, though, so it may be a couple more years before I get one (or it could always be next week... ). I guess I have to keep showing up and hammering the message in, for them to get it and recall it, when it counts -- and ACTUALLY CALL ME.

I'm just wondering what type this one I missed out on was, since it used electricity. Air suspension? Magnetic suspension, with electromagnets? This has me thinking about some kind of electromagnetic one, with servo-feedback to increase dampening effects and "tune" the resonance to suit the weight/mass on the table and any actual vibration. Would this be practical?

...and PLEASE don't keep us waiting TOO long, to find out your latest idea/scheme that you allude to. Enquiring new GT-2000 owners want to know! :yes:

 

[theophile]

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Having briefly lifted mine, just to see what it felt like, I can really appreciate this! I'm NOT looking forward to carrying this the 1/2 block or so, and down and up a few flights of stairs, that will be needed to bring it home to my living room! I'd put it on a trolley/dolly, but I don't want to risk the vibration. I might enlist help, but if they other person dropped their end, or caused me to drop mine, I'd have to :twak: :uzi: them.


Thanks for sharing your observations about magnetic levitation. The other day, I reminded the guy from the surplus place here that I had asked him quite a while back about isolation tables. He admitted that he'd been too busy and forgotten when one passed through his hands recently. All he could tell me was that it was electric (it plugged into the wall) and fairly large. Arghh! My fault, though, as I had mentioned it quite a while back, and never reminded him. This time, I made sure that both he and the woman there KNOW that I WANT the next one, and they should call me. They don't get them very often, though, so it may be a couple more years before I get one (or it could always be next week... ). I guess I have to keep showing up and hammering the message in, for them to get it and recall it, when it counts -- and ACTUALLY CALL ME.

I'm just wondering what type this one I missed out on was, since it used electricity. Air suspension? Magnetic suspension, with electromagnets? This has me thinking about some kind of electromagnetic one, with servo-feedback to increase dampening effects and "tune" the resonance to suit the weight/mass on the table and any actual vibration. Would this be practical?

...and PLEASE don't keep us waiting TOO long, to find out your latest idea/scheme that you allude to. Enquiring new GT-2000 owners want to know! :yes:

Since I am the only know individual in the entire universe utilising the particular elements,I will be keeping 'mum' about this one. :yes:

It is soooo 'left of field' that I'm never revealing it.Okay,have you ever considered climbing the Empire State building with your GT 2000?

That is the only(obscure) clue I'll give to my new method.

 

[theophile]

I've twiddled and diddled and fiddled with weights.Moving them around in order to get an even compression of the pylons.

I'm over it.

It sounds stunning.I could possibly eke some more out of this or I could lose all the progress I've gained.

It's time to step-back(from the turntable support,at least)and simply,revel.

The new Kenwood L-06Ms have made this easier.Their resolution(in Sigma Mode)is an open window. :thmbsp:

 

[dnewma04]

Does this system just levitage the system vertically while using mechanical coupling to prevent lateral movements?

 

[Arkay]

Let's see, the air at the top of the Empire State Building is thinner than that found at its base. Extrapolating from that, you are operating the GT-2000 (and its base) inside of an appropriately-sized vacuum chamber. The absence of air eliminates any chance of airborne vibrations reaching the TT/cart. Absolutely no microphonics.

I thought of that years ago. Just haven't had a system worthy of trying it out with, especially since breaking the vacuum and re-establishing it every time you want to flip over the record is a bit of a nuisance.

One day I MIGHT try it, though, with a TT as nice as the GT-2000!

I think I'll bring mine home on Wednesday or Thursday. Really looking forward to it!


I saw four magnetic-suspension things that looked like those Magix in an audio consignment shop here a couple of days ago, but they only had the four, not nearly enough to support a GT-2000.

Got me thinking, though: Couldn't you DIY some magnetic-repulsion supports using neodymium magnets (such as those from hard disc drives), for vertical dampening, and add roller-balls for the horizontal component? It would be easier than making an entirely magnetic (in both directions) system, and a LOT cheaper than buying the Magix. Haven't completely thought this through, but I think there should be a way to do it. I may start experimenting with some of the neodymiums I have around, to test construction ideas.

 

[dnewma04]

Arkay, and entirely magnetic system is inherently unstable with permanent magnets. You could use electromagnets to handle a portion of the poles, but an attempt to use permanent magnets for each pole is doomed to failure. A little search of earnshaw's theorem will shed more light on the subject.

I like the idea of vertically levitated components with a shaft riding in a bushing. Think clearaudio's magnetically suspended platter.

 

[theophile]

Does this system just levitage the system vertically while using mechanical coupling to prevent lateral movements?

dnew,
The Clearaudio method is a piston within an enclosed cylinder.I truly cant tell you exactly how they arrange the magnetic elements within the cylinder.

Let's see, the air at the top of the Empire State Building is thinner than that found at its base. Extrapolating from that, you are operating the GT-2000 (and its base) inside of an appropriately-sized vacuum chamber. The absence of air eliminates any chance of airborne vibrations reaching the TT/cart. Absolutely no microphonics.

I thought of that years ago. Just haven't had a system worthy of trying it out with, especially since breaking the vacuum and re-establishing it every time you want to flip over the record is a bit of a nuisance.

One day I MIGHT try it, though, with a TT as nice as the GT-2000!

I think I'll bring mine home on Wednesday or Thursday. Really looking forward to it!


I saw four magnetic-suspension things that looked like those Magix in an audio consignment shop here a couple of days ago, but they only had the four, not nearly enough to support a GT-2000.

Got me thinking, though: Couldn't you DIY some magnetic-repulsion supports using neodymium magnets (such as those from hard disc drives), for vertical dampening, and add roller-balls for the horizontal component? It would be easier than making an entirely magnetic (in both directions) system, and a LOT cheaper than buying the Magix. Haven't completely thought this through, but I think there should be a way to do it. I may start experimenting with some of the neodymiums I have around, to test construction ideas.

The reference to the Empire State building was in reference to the Most Famous (fictional) Climber of the building.Notice I'm using LARGE case letters.The products I am using under the GT 2000 share a brand name with this fictional climber.

I was looking at certain of this brand's products,and I thought "Hmm.These might just be interesting under a component."I tried them under my L-1000M first,and I am convinced that they do something which is hugely beneficial to the sound-quality.So I bought some more and put them under my L-06Ms.Same thing.Then I thought "What about the 2000?".So I took them out from under the amps and put them under the 2000.The Magix are supporting a glass shelf(with a pad of styrene on it)and the 'Other Things' are directly under the 2000.It took 25 of them.

I'm leaving them there.

The difference between the 2000 atop unoptimised Magix and optimised is large.The L-06Ms highlight this due to their incredible low-level detail abilities.There are three things which show me that I've nailed the turntable's isolation.Low level detail/Resolution(very low level).Dynamics and Bass.All three do a dramatic jump when everything is spot-on.

It's funny that there are some products out there which have hardly been recognised in the West(like the Yamaha GT 2000 and the Kenwood L-06Ms)which can be bought for a very reasonble price(in Japan)that have astonishing ability.I'm certain that there are other unsung wonders out-there.Products which have never really come to Non-Japanese mainstream attention.Products which will(when more people get their hands on them)forge a belated stellar reputation.

The problem with amplifcation,is that it can only show it's true colours after receiving a signal from a stunning Source component.After all we can have a high resolution photo of a beautiful face,or of a face with smallpox.The camera isn't to blame for what it captures,and neither is an amplifier.

 

[dnewma04]

Do the sides of the shaft make contact with the ID of the cylinder?

 

[theophile]

Do the sides of the shaft make contact with the ID of the cylinder?

At the moment I can't tell you because they can't really be acessed to find-out.My recollection is-No.

There must be two magnets for the vertical repulsion.One on the base of the cylinder and one on the base of the piston.I don't know whether the walls of both the piston and the cylinder similarly repulse.

I would imagine that if there wasn't a similar repulsion between the outside surface of the piston and the inside surface of the cylinder,then the piston would simply be 'swung' out of vertical and scrape against the inside of the cylinder(which doesn't appear to happen).

Pushing-down on the piston seems to only give a smooth and progressively more resistive movement of the piston into the cylinder.

 

[dnewma04]

Thanks for the description, I suspect that the piston is making physical contact with something and not completely floating. Stability would be impossible, otherwise.

 

[theophile]

Thanks for the description, I suspect that the piston is making physical contact with something and not completely floating. Stability would be impossible, otherwise.

I've wondered if the surface of the piston was polarised and the the inside of the cylinder was the same polarity,plus the underneath of the piston and the bottom of the cylinder-well.It may well be possible.

After-all we see 'Sky diving' possible within a cylinder.The same Giant Fan effect(outside of a cylinder) would simply not be able to lift a person vertically.....