Ribbon vs. Planar tweeter

bre's dad

bre's dad

I drank what?!?
I'm starting Fence Post v3 and am looking into a different tweeter then the Peerless doft dome I have. They'vre great, but borrowed from another set of speakers. Looking a two tweeters from PE and am trying to figure out which one might suit me best. Between the two, the planar gets higher ratings but I've always heard very good things (like the accuracy) about ribbons in general. I'm lookiing to cross them over at about 4k (where the Peerless are crossed over now. I'm using dual 4" woofers and they aren't going to see a lot of power (few watts would be enough to drive you out of the room.) I don't have time to write out all the specs, but here are links to the tweeters:

ribbon: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=277-110
planar: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=275-085

For reference here are the woofers I'm using: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-279

Suggestions?
 
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Personally, I'd choose the Dayton - an octave lower Fs means more freedom when designing the crossover.

Also, the Reston may call itself a ribbon, but it looks like a planar to me. A true ribbon design, like the RAAL, or the old Apogee models, uses a thin piece of aluminum foil as the radiator. Planars use a plastic film covered with magnetic material.

I believe Zaph audio did tests of ribbon/planar tweeters awhile back - you might want to surf over to his site.
 
frperdurabo said:
Personally, I'd choose the Dayton - an octave lower Fs means more freedom when designing the crossover.

Also, the Reston may call itself a ribbon, but it looks like a planar to me. A true ribbon design, like the RAAL, or the old Apogee models, uses a thin piece of aluminum foil as the radiator. Planars use a plastic film covered with magnetic material.

I believe Zaph audio did tests of ribbon/planar tweeters awhile back - you might want to surf over to his site.
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Good advice re: Zaph... he's pretty durned opinionated when it comes to tweeters (if memory serves, he pretty much hates ribbon drivers)... but he's tested a bunch of tweeters and there is lots of info there to read and critically digest.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/

(EDIT: good advice w/r/t the two tweeters in the OP, too!)

EDIT^2: spoiler alert. From Zaph:

I often hear people babble on about the shimmer, sparkle and air of ribbon tweeters. These tests show where these "special effects" are coming from - distortion. Ribbons do have a unique distortion profile that many will find enjoyable with some music. That's OK, and it does not have to relfect badly on your "golden ear" status. However, if accuracy to the original signal is what you are after, one of these ribbons may not be the best solution. Ribbons are certainly not the best solution if you want to build a high-value system. Those building line arrays may want to take a good hard look at one of the longer B&G elements.
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I have that SAME Beston planar tweeter. crossed over to a 4" Dayton aluminum dome mid-bass driver, using a 2nd order Xover at 4,000hz.
Trust me, it is NOT a true ribbon, IMO.
Still for the price, sound pretty decent to ME?

Steve
 
One of the nicest - sounding cone / planar hybrids I've heard used a cheap MCM wide-band driver and the $5 Apex.jr ribbon tweeter: http://www.t-linespeakers.org/drivers/ribbon.html

I'm not knocking the Beston (I've never heard it). But cone/planar hybrids are tough to get right ... the differences in distortion spectrum and off-axis response make it challenging. That doesn't mean it won't be fun to try....
 
I have used that Dayton driver in several designs with predictable success and ended up with nice clean sound. It has pleany of extention and is pretty efficient. Where you are xover-ing you might even get away with a first order xover and simplify your neywork even more!! The Dayton sounds good- never thin or straining.
DC
 
mhardy6647 said:
Good advice re: Zaph... he's pretty durned opinionated when it comes to tweeters (if memory serves, he pretty much hates ribbon drivers)... but he's tested a bunch of tweeters and there is lots[/] of info there to read and critically digest.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
Click to expand...
It's a good site to see drivers tested side by side, and like Zaph I unfortunately detest ribbons, I can't get past the metal sound. They ring and sound like tinfoil to my ears, some people can't hear it, like some people can't see the image ghost and drag on an LCD TV. If I had no other choice, I would try a planar like the Neo3 or go e-stat.
 
The ribbons came today and I must say I was less than impressed. They were to replace some Peerless dome I 'borrowed' from another project. The panars should come Friday. I'll test them against the Peerless. I'm sending the ribbons back.
 
After looking at the frequency and distortion plots of the Dayton ND20FB-4 tweeters on Zaph’s website, I bought and used them based on his positive evaluation.
The fact that he uses $17.98 a pair tweeter in his design speaks highly of them. These drivers turned out to be exceptional regardless of price. Based on that I would say that the Zaph website is a valuable source for anyone interested in building and modifying speakers.
Given Zaph's experience, I would regard his general dislike (based on actual testing) for ribbon and planar tweeters with great consideration. The only one he recommends is the B&G Neo3, which has received high praise from him and others in the DIY speaker community.
 
Certain drivers are often bring out.....'mixed' emotions?
To this day, there are people who cannot stand the sound of metal-dome tweeters.
I would imagine that a similar criteria apply to planar and ribbon tweeters also?

Steve
 
gearhound said:
Certain drivers are often bring out.....'mixed' emotions?
To this day, there are people who cannot stand the sound of metal-dome tweeters.
I would imagine that a similar criteria apply to planar and ribbon tweeters also?

Steve
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Not just drivers, y'know? ;-)

DSC_0105.jpg
 
If a device’s perceived auditory shortcomings can be demonstrated empirically through measuring industry standard parametrics such as distortion, frequency response, dispersion, characteristics etc., it becomes less of a prejudiced opinion a more of a proven fact.
Zaph’s measurements have shown that some highly regarded planar and ribbon tweeters test poorly in these areas when compared to a low priced but good performing dome.
I agree that perception does play a big part in the prejudice that some people hold against certain types of equipment, for example metal dome tweeters. After all, it’s made of metal so it’s bound to sound metallic right? Difference here is that unlike the ribbons Zaph evaluated, quality metal dome tweeters test very well when measuring the industry accepted parameters.
 
That's true kconnor.
Not all metals can ring, and the dome shape makes domes stiffer, moving any resonance upward in frequency and when we're lucky, down in amplitude and up out of our hearing range. Ribbons are made to be flexible, so when they start moving there will be points where they want to keep moving. If it is hard enough like beryllium, which is second to diamond (and in the real world sometimes more similar than different at all to CVD diamond) it simple can't flex to ring. In that case any ringing below 30kHz may be the suspension system or non-linear drive excursion. Even ESLs ring but in a different manner than most drivers. They generally tend to drop fast, and then sit and ring at a low level for an extended period of time since there is nothing to stop them. They are a lot like plucking a string. The largest part of the initial impulsive transient attenuates fast but then sits and rings for what seems forever at a lower amplitude. It can add air and space to a recording, or annoy others.
 
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mhardy6647 said:
Good advice re: Zaph... he's pretty durned opinionated when it comes to tweeters (if memory serves, he pretty much hates ribbon drivers)... but he's tested a bunch of tweeters and there is lots of info there to read and critically digest.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/

(EDIT: good advice w/r/t the two tweeters in the OP, too!)

EDIT^2: spoiler alert. From Zaph:
Click to expand...
Old post, but still seen I got a slew of magnepans at my disposal..

I got a mgIIIa with the 57 TRUE ribbon (yes, foil suspended between magnets) the infamous magnepan true ribbon tweeters.

I gave them a very good listen (6 weeks straight so gave them fair time) , I went promptly back to my magnepan tympani I with "planar tweeter" there is something extremely annoying about true ribbon tweeters. It's hitting the upper end in such a unpleasant way for me. I can listen to planar tweeters all day on any volume. True ribbon not so much, they are tiring me within no time.

I also have a mgII (2 way) again planar , it totally adhered better to my ears. Same story, the mgIIIa in all aspects is a superior (specs for sure 3 way, true ribbon) tweeter.

Same with my mmg and mgI they do roll off a good bit sooner , but I think that's also their strength. It's less fatique inducing. True ribbons seems to be more for the purist that love that upper end being extremely present in every recording.

I don't hate it , but I can't listen to them to long. I will always prefer my run of the mill planars.
 
Magfinity said:
True ribbon not so much, they are tiring me within no time.
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They are unforgiving of downstream gear. ;)

I confess that some of the best sounding top end transparency I've heard was found in spectacular systems of a late reviewer friend using speakers with ribbon tweeters including: Magnepan 20.1, 3.7, Nola Grand Reference Exotica and Scaena 1.4. Tiring they were decidedly not in those environments.

My first foray into dipole planars was with MG-IIs back in '76 (after hearing tri-amped T-IIIs using Audio Research electronics). They do many things nicely but I found them ultimately opaque sounding at the top as compared with better. But, they are arguably more forgiving of lesser sources and amplification.
 
Magfinity said:
Old post, but still seen I got a slew of magnepans at my disposal..
Click to expand...
Tacking this post onto the very old post is a good way to have it overlooked by many and your topic is one that should have its own thread but what the heck, here goes.

Magnepan talks about rock and modern music having some peaks in the recording process above 6kHz. This can lead to the tweeters seeming to be a bit crisp. My IIIa speakers moved a pair of DCM Time Windows to the extras spot and I thought the tweeters were a bit hot. The TW with Philips tweeters that roll off before 20k and Magnepan ribbons that go to 25k+ caused this so I looked around.

Magnepan's OM talks about adding a non-inductive resistor to tame the tweeter in the IIIa. There were discussions on MUG about using an inductor and I picked up a couple 5µH and a pair of 10 microHenry inductors as mentioned in the thread. The 10s killed the high end but the 5s are now part of my IIIa speakers. They go in the tweeter attenuator position. Smoothed out the high end very nicely.

Thread over on MUG Tried the RF Choke Tweak - WOW! - riceowl68 - Planar Speaker Asylum (audioasylum.com)
 
In my lifelong experience with ribbons (GAMMA VLD-12) there is nothing tireing about them, quite to the contrary, they sound as if they are not even there.
These are pretty high end though and probably the best hornloaded ribbons ever made.
 
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I have found that speakers/ tweeters that attenuated the 5-7 k range cause big listening fatigue.. 2 examples include the JBL Le-5 and the ESS Heil Tweeter. I have used/ experienced Raven, Raal, and Fountek ribbon tweeters as well as BG planar and for me if crossed as recommended seem to provide clarity that is hard to surpass…though I still have a soft spot for the Morel MDT-33 and Scan Speak 9130.
 
Blue Shadow said:
Tacking this post onto the very old post is a good way to have it overlooked by many and your topic is one that should have its own thread but what the heck, here goes.

Magnepan talks about rock and modern music having some peaks in the recording process above 6kHz. This can lead to the tweeters seeming to be a bit crisp. My IIIa speakers moved a pair of DCM Time Windows to the extras spot and I thought the tweeters were a bit hot. The TW with Philips tweeters that roll off before 20k and Magnepan ribbons that go to 25k+ caused this so I looked around.

Magnepan's OM talks about adding a non-inductive resistor to tame the tweeter in the IIIa. There were discussions on MUG about using an inductor and I picked up a couple 5µH and a pair of 10 microHenry inductors as mentioned in the thread. The 10s killed the high end but the 5s are now part of my IIIa speakers. They go in the tweeter attenuator position. Smoothed out the high end very nicely.

Thread over on MUG Tried the RF Choke Tweak - WOW! - riceowl68 - Planar Speaker Asylum (audioasylum.com)
Click to expand...

Upon restoring my mgIIIa magnepan required the serial numbers. Depending on the serial numbers they will add the resistor pack. In my case it was not warrants by them to get them.

The thing is I've had tons of planar tweeter loaded systems (choughs infinity emim, emits ) I have the mgI,mgII,mgIIIa, Tympani ,mmg I keep on swearing right back towards the more tamer planar tweeters vs the 57 inch true ribbons.

I think you're spot on with everything you said about having a peak somewhere where they just fatique the living heck out of me. No bashing here, but true ribbon doesn't seem to fit my ears at all.

Also I have a treated room (American acoustics panels) what not ..
 
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