Vandersteen 2ce sig

wanders

wanders

Super Member
I have these vans and am up-grading my amp. I’m seeking opinions on the value of internal bi-wire vs true bi-wire for the speakers.

I hope to avoid a cable debate. I listened to my speakers bi-wired and jumper wired. IMHO, the bi-wire makes an audible and positive improvement inSQ.

Changing my current cables from internal bi-wire to true bi-wire will cost me about $200 at Blue Jeans.

What do you think?
 
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How long are the speaker cables?

I have seen and heard cases where bi-wiring was quite audible- in a good way. Especially with longer speaker cables. There is a fundamental physical basis for it- isolating the back EMF effects of the bass drivers from the mid/high drivers, and vice-versa. Sometimes, that does make the speaker perform better.

Is there something else in your system, where $200 would make a larger positive effect? If not, then the new cables for bi-wiring seem worthwhile to me.

EDIT: One thing I would recommend, is to use the SAME type cables for the high frequencies and the low frequencies. If there is a difference, in any way, in the "sonic signature" (primarily resistance, inductance and capacitance, but also some effects from insulation hysteresis and other ancillary factors), then you want that effect to be the same on the low and high sections, in order to more closely maintain the tonal balance and general coherence of the speaker. BTW- Yes, I do understand that some cable companies have "asymmetric" bi-wire arrangements- different cables optimized for bass and mid-high applications. That's OK, when those cables have been SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to do that- where their voicing and other properties are made to work together. OTOH- the random combination of a cable from one manufacturer, with that from another- with no real regard given to matching- can sometimes give sub-optimal results.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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I have energy 2.8 that are triamped - I swapped the wires to 10g and it improved sound , however some of the old wire was truly wretched , like 16g copper clad aluminum.
Anyhow, I found a place on the net that sold 10g single silver plated copper multi strand for .$80 a foot. Yes, only came in black and you need double , but it was a fraction of what others charge for silver plated copper. I bought some nice connectors from parts express .
I’m sure if you search, you might find this company .
I also replaced the 12g green oxidized radio shack mega cable with this 10g silver plated stuff with my acoustat 2+2 stats.
Honestly , I heard no difference.
Oh well !
 
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homebrew said:
I understand Richard Vandersteen likes the bi-wire configuration.
Click to expand...

In fact I think Vandersteen's designs are done, using bi-wire during the testing and listening process. In other words, bi-wire is "baked into" the design, in a way.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Thanks for the opinions. The speakers are designed to be bi-wired (double binding post on each speaker - one set to base, the other to mid/high). There is no reason not to bi-wire. You’d have to give up base or (if you’re hard-headed) use a goofy jumper system that ties the speaker binding posts together. As noted, bi-wire vs jumper is a no-brainer.

My question was a little esoteric. (Internal bi-wire uses a single, four lead cable vs true bi-wire which uses two, two lead cables per side. Blue Jeans will make up four, two wire, 8’, 12 awg, Beldens - for $50 each.

My current set-up is one 8’, four lead per side - 12 awg. I fully believe that Richard Vandersteen can hear the difference from 100’ away, but I suspect I couldn’t hear it from 100”. I’m hoping someone has tried both methods.
 
Some folks separate the biwired pairs by a foot or more.

I used to run my 3A Signatures with the bass wires by the floor and the mid-treble wires about 3 feet above. I used gold spade lugs.
 
odcics2 said:
Some folks separate the biwired pairs by a foot or more.

I used to run my 3A Signatures with the bass wires by the floor and the mid-treble wires about 3 feet above. I used gold spade lugs.
Click to expand...
Interesting idea. Did you try true-bi?
 
What's "tru-bi"?

I had a mid-treble pair of wires from speaker to amp.
Same for the bass. To me that's the only way to biwire a speaker.

Bundling up 4 conductors from amp to speaker would negate some of the benefit of keeping things apart.
 
odcics2 said:
What's "tru-bi"?

I had a mid-treble pair of wires from speaker to amp.
Same for the bass. To me that's the only way to biwire a speaker.

Bundling up 4 conductors from amp to speaker would negate some of the benefit of keeping things apart.
Click to expand...
 
wanders said:
(Internal bi-wire uses a single, four lead cable vs true bi-wire which uses two, two lead cables per side.
Click to expand...
The difference is minor. Either way four leads from the amp (+/-, +/-) to the speaker; one pair to the bass posts, the other to the mid/high.

For each speaker, True-bi uses two cables each containing one pair of leads; Internal-bi use one cable containing two pairs of leads.

A minor point, but one Vandersteen thinks is important.
 
odcics2 said:
What's "tru-bi"?

I had a mid-treble pair of wires from speaker to amp.
Same for the bass. To me that's the only way to biwire a speaker.

Bundling up 4 conductors from amp to speaker would negate some of the benefit of keeping things apart.
Click to expand...


Unless they're twisted in a field canceling quad configuration .. and not just bundled in ..
But I'm with you ... wiring topology and proximity count ..
The fields created by the high and low circuits can modulate the signal in the other circuit in transit .. maybe, or maybe not audibly, but why give them the chance ??
 
And any bi-wire has to be on the amp's terminals ..
Bi-wiring works because it creates two circuits which reduces IM by separating the signal frequencies... can't rmodulate what isn't there.
If there is a connection anywhere but on the + and - terminals of the amp an intermodulated signal will be present in both circuits...

Whether you can hear the IM reduction is subject to a lot of variables ..
And Gordon just pointed out the potential benefits of isolating and damping the woofer's EMF in a separate circuit ..
 
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wanders said:
I have these vans and am up-grading my amp. I’m seeking opinions on the value of internal bi-wire vs true bi-wire for the speakers.

I hope to avoid a cable debate. I listened to my speakers bi-wired and jumper wired. IMHO, the bi-wire makes an audible and positive improvement inSQ.

Changing my current cables from internal bi-wire to true bi-wire will cost me about $200 at Blue Jeans.

What do you think?
Click to expand...

I've been using Canare SW11 in my bi-wire experiments .. (jumpering blurred transients, misses detail, and there's a bit of grain that wasn't present on the bi-wired side )
It's a true twisted quad configuration so the legs shouldn't be intermodulating .. ( not audibly anyway in my case )

I know Blue Jeans sells the Canare SW11 .. along with a couple other cables...
And this conversation makes me realize that the next test has to be bi-wiring one side with two separate lengths of that Canare and the other side with a single length.
I've been taking it for granted that the twists are canceling any chance of audible intermodulation .. theoretically they should be ..
 
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