Your opinion on equalizers vs subs

I would say to use both.
O.K. my system is fully active with 3 way speakers and the relative levels are set on the electronic crossovers. I do have a 15 channel EQ to tweak some recordings.
My point is that by using an EQ to overblow a driver that is already struggling to produce the low bass will likely muddy the midrange as well. If you use an EQ to take the low bass away from your main speakers (it's not playing it properly anyway) and then add that back in with a well integrated sub you get the best of both worlds with each driver doing what it does best.
 
I EQ in the digital domain and use horn loaded subs in addition to heavy room treatments. I wouldn't want it any other way.
 
Hobie1dog said:
No substitute for a tight,accurate, long throw, subwoofer. You need to FEEL the music and it takes a driver of large displacement to move lots of air for a visceral feel to the music.
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I prefer larger or more efficient main loudspeakers. And not dealing with two crossovers. And sufficient power for sufficient dynamic headroom. No replacement for displacement.
 
Actually, eq's and subs serve different functions. A subwoofer is designed to extend the low end response of a system. That's it

An equalizer, OTOH, is designed to smooth out the response of the existing system to match it to the room. That it can be bastardized to grossly boost the low end of speakers thereby dramatically increasing the demand on the power amp is a side effect and could be considered a misuse of it's intended purpose, not unlike oxycontin was created for a purpose but has been abused for other than altruistic reasons.
 
I find that tone controls and sub sound vastly different. I prefer having a sub. Still, if a bit off tone control adjustment makes your system sound the way that you want it to, then I think that you should leave it. At some later date, you might end up getting other speakers that maybe sound good without tone control and you might then decide to ditch the EQ. Until then though, enjoy what you've got. I don't think that it makes much sense to get too caught up in any kind of theoretical perfection. Much better to use what you have and tweak it to sound the way that you want it. I believe that home audio really should only be about pleasing the one who owns the stuff...
 
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the skipper said:
An equalizer, OTOH, is designed to smooth out the response of the existing system to match it to the room. That it can be bastardized to grossly boost the low end of speakers thereby dramatically increasing the demand on the power amp is a side effect and could be considered a misuse of it's intended purpose, not unlike oxycontin was created for a purpose but has been abused for other than altruistic reasons.
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Misuse? It seems to me that a lot or maybe even most of the folks who own these things use them for artificially boosting and cutting various frequencies in the music (to match their particular taste) rather than as compensation for room acoustics. When you have that many people who are using something a particular way it seems that the manufacturers are certainly aware of that and thus make it for that very purpose. I don't see that sort of thing as any kind of "off-label" use, but one of a couple of very much intended uses for it... It might be anathema for a lot of us here to just be going crazy with eq to match any kind of whim, but that's exactly how lots, if not even most folks end up using the thing.
 
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The Allison EQ is very brand specific just like the Mcintosh MQ equalizers or the Bose equalizers. Yes an equalizer can help when used in moderation. But of your speakers are only rated to the upper 30's to low 40's. Using an EQ to reach 32 HZ is eventually cause a failure if not listening stress and for sure trying for lower. So if you are serious about reaching lower. You a couple of choices. Obviously a sub seems the easy way out. But you already have two 12 inch woofers. So you would need a long throw 18 inch or a very long 15 inch or a unit with two 15 inch woofers. Remember the sub is going to have to be able to move at least 4 times the air if of the combined 414 woofers. If they move a 1/8 inch the subs if an 18 needs to move close to a 1/2 inch. A 15" would be close to an inch. Another choice would be to find two 416 woofers and build an 10 to 16 cuft enclosure and tune the enclosure to 20 HZ. Then all you need is a 200 watt amp, and a mini processor to use as an EQ and electronic crossover. The enclosure needs to be well braced and moderately stuffed to reduce internal reflections.
 
RunOutGroove said:
Misuse? It seems to me that a lot or maybe even most of the folks who own these things use them for artificially boosting and cutting various frequencies in the music (to match their particular taste) rather than as compensation for room acoustics. When you have that many people who are using something a particular way it seems that the manufacturers are certainly aware of that and thus make it for that very purpose. I don't see that sort of thing as any kind of unattended use, but one of a couple of very much intended uses for it... It might be anathema for a lot of us here to just be going crazy with eq to match any kind of whim, but that's exactly how lots, if not even most folks end up using the thing.
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Yeah, misuse. The most effective way to use an eq is to smooth out the room response and, in many cases, it's more effective in a subtractive mode rather than a boost mode. Using it to artificially boost the low end is akin to someone busing oxycontin to feel good. but, it's your system. use it as you wish.

this is appropriate as the original question in this thread assumed they served a similar function. My point is they do not although many seem to think they do.
 
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the skipper said:
Yeah, misuse. The most effective way to use an eq is to smooth out the room response and, in many cases, it's more effective in a subtractive mode rather than a boost mode. Using it to artificially boost the low end is akin to someone busing oxycontin to feel good. but, it's your system. use it as you wish.

this is appropriate as the original question in this thread assumed they served a similar function. My point is they do not although many seem to think they do.
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It's "misuse" according to you, but doubtfully according to the companies that make these things or the people who use them. Comparing it to misuse of a drug where there are health consequences seems like a stretch. Like I said, I don't bother with those things and if I did, it would be only top compensate for room acoustics, but who am I to say that folks who use it another way are wrong, particularly considering that so many of them are sold to people who want to mod out the sound (not as a compensation type thing).

Do I believe that the best bass sound is going to come from artificially cranking up the eq? No, but if someone who does that sits back and thinks about how much better everything sounds with it set that way and that they're really satisfied with what they hear, who am I to tell them that they're wrong?
 
whatever. we're done here. As I said in my previous post, "Using it to artificially boost the low end is akin to someone busing oxycontin to feel good. but, it's your system. use it as you wish."
 
Some equalizers were specifically designed to extend low frequency response. This is an incontrovertible fact. Some have been mentioned such as the Allison, Bose and McIntosh. And EV used EQ to extend bass response. I take Ray Newman and EV very seriously.
 
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As the old adage goes, ain't no replacement for displacement. For bass reproduction what you need is to displace more air.

You can do it by pushing your speakers extra hard in the lower registers with EQ, although you'll be working them hard at high volumes and/or reducing headroom, and they're still unlikely to properly reproduce the lowest frequencies.

Or you can do it (better IMO) with a dedicated driver (or drivers) and amplifier, designed to reproduce only low frequencies. This makes things easier on your main speakers and will get you the lower frequencies.

Sometimes you can create the illusion of deep bass by bumping up around the 100Hz mark - but if you compare this to actual deep bass you'll immediately know what you're missing. Deep bass is more felt than heard.
 
I have Model 14s and use them with a servo sub and room correction/EQ via an active crossover. I believe the Mantaray horn really responds well to an active crossover. Night and day, totally different speaker IMO.

In the world of producing music and professional reproduction, EQ appears to be a must, but for home playback, there's an 'anti-complexity' stigma that some purists abide by. At the THD levels of decent equipment, you shouldn't be able to hear any negative impacts, if there are any.

For my challenging open plan 2 story room, Room EQ + a little high shelf for goosing the mid bass makes them sound really good and subharmonic synthesis can really fill out the bottom end for older records with limited dynamic range, but I feel the little 8" long throw servo sub adds a whole new palpable dimension to the frequency range. Wish I had 2 of them or even the larger 10" model. (I think, assuming I'm missing something)
 
Tom Brennan said:
Some equalizers were specifically designed to extend low frequency response. This is an incontrovertible fact. Some have been mentioned such as the Allison, Bose and McIntosh. And EV used EQ to extend bass response. I take Ray Newman and EV very seriously.
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let's be real, shall we? We both know that those eqs were designed for specific speakers and not for general use like the ones being discussed here.

that would be like me saying one can survive a 33.000' fall from an airplane which, while technically true, it would certainly be an outlier.

"Vesna Vulović (Serbian Cyrillic: Весна Вуловић, pronounced [ʋêsna ʋûːloʋitɕ]; 3 January 1950 – 23 December 2016) was a Serbian flight attendant who holds the Guinness world record for surviving the highest fall without a parachute: 10,160 m (33,330 ft; 6.31 mi)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesna_Vulović#:~:text=Vesna Vulović (Serbian Cyrillic: Весна,33,330 ft; 6.31 mi).
 
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Unless you listen to direct-to-disc, the engineer who mixed the music you're listening to mixed it to their own taste on their own speakers in their own space.
And equalized the heck out of it in the process.
Make your music sound good to you. To hell with the self-professed "purist" experts. Get an EQ, get a sub, enjoy.

But do ONE thing: try to get an audition of a system that has been set up to mimic the original recording as accurately as possible. It's good to have a knowledge baseline to work with when you dial in your own setup.
 
I agree with many comments.

I might further offer my thoughts.
A small main speaker especially can benefit from a properly integrated Sub. If done right, there won't be anything missing.

And in any instance with a Sub, you'll be placing a lot less strain on your main speaker's low frequency drivers and you main amp.

You will go "lower" with a good sub. That's what they were designed to do.
 
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