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2270 Idle current adjustment?

MikeED

New Member
I'm baffled as to why I am unable to adjust the DC idle current on both my amp boards to 5 mV DC. I have an early model #4XXX so I'm using J753 and J754 as my points of measurement. On both boards I'm reading 46VDC and there is no voltage variation when R763 is rotated. For the heck of it, I took a V reading from J756-J753 on one of the boards and the Fluke still indicated about 46VDC.

I was able to adjust the PS voltage and DC offset "on the money". Is there something I'm doing incorrectly? Appreciate any help.

Mike
 
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I would say that your power transistor H001 has a short between C-E and the 0.2 Ohm resistor between J753 and J754 (R788?) is open.

Unless there is a misprint on the schematic.
 
I believe that the bias measurement points are incorrect from the service manual. The correct points are documented online, and corrected in the service manual from hifiengine.com, but I don't remember them off the top of my head.
Don't forget to perform the bias transistor mod on this if you haven't already (or if it is a later model)
 
The test points are different for early and late models. Yours appears to be a late model.
The service manual addresses models up to 3900, the service bulletin addresses those above 3900.

Tom
 

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According to the Service bulletin Tom, I am taking the measurements from the correct pins (J754 & J753). Ecluser mentioned a possible short or open resistor, but if that was the case I would assume both L and R amp wouldn't be working...the receiver does work.

The service manual mentions to use a VTVM, however that was before the digital age, I would suspect. I just finished taking the VDC reading again: 46.9 VDV. What the heck is going on or; what am I doing wrong???? Please help

Mike
 
If your receiver works with speaker the power transistor and the emitter resistor are good.

In the service manual there is two different schematics.

If the serial number is 1001 to 3900 you should have a low voltage (few mV) between J754 and J753. The 0.2 Ohm emitter resistor is connected between these points.

For serial number 3901 to 4900 J753 is connected to the emitter of the PNP power transistor, and his collector is connected to J754. For these amps it is normal to have 47V between J754 and J753. The 0.2 Ohm "emitter resistor" is connected between J754 and J756, so the correct points are J754/J756 and J756/J760 in these amps.

Locate the 0.2 Ohm resistors and connect your DVM across each one. You should be able to adjust to spec.
 
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Thanks so much Ecluser. You explained exactly where I needed to go.....that .2 ohm emitter resistor was the key to setting the idle current. If only I would have known earlier. Thanks so much.

One last question: I'm noticing that the idle current gradually increases the longer the unit remains on. Since I started this post it already increased .5 mV.
How long should I keep the receiver on before making the finial idle current setting?

When I turn the receiver off to change my leads to the other board should I let the unit idle for the same amount of time?

I greatly appreciate your help...now I have a little bit better understanding

Mike
 
Usually I drive amps for ~15 minutes at 50% rated power and I monitor the bias current. If the bias current is maintained below the rated value (in your case it is 5mV/ 0.2 Ohm = 25mA) when the amplifier is hot, there is no risk of failure.

The rising bias current in your case comes from the temperature changes of the driver transistors (H758 and H759) because the bias transistor H760 is thermally coupled to the power transistors, but it should have been coupled to the driver transistors in a circuit of this topology (compound or complementary feedback pair). This is a common mistake from circuit designers but it is not so consequent.
 
If your receiver works with speaker the power transistor and the emitter resistor are good.

In the service manual there is two different schematics.

If the serial number is 1001 to 3900 you should have a low voltage (few mV) between J754 and J753. The 0.2 Ohm emitter resistor is connected between these points.

For serial number 3901 to 4900 J753 is connected to the emitter of the PNP power transistor, and his collector is connected to J754. For these amps it is normal to have 47V between J754 and J753. The 0.2 Ohm "emitter resistor" is connected between J754 and J756, so the correct points are J754/J756 and J756/J760 in these amps.

Locate the 0.2 Ohm resistors and connect your DVM across each one. You should be able to adjust to spec.

thank You so much for this post! wow thought I was losing it! I have an early 2270 ser#1334 and the guy who bot to this before me treated it as though it was an older unit ! the bias is now set and sounding great! bandaging up my head from banging it into the floor for 2 months!
 
Im trying to adjust the idle current and the terminals in the service manual are also not giving a reading as the OP. The emittor resistor has a sheathing that doesnt allow checking without taking the boards out and stretching it back. These boards/heatsinks are a pain in the butt to take out with the tight wires and temperature sensor. Wonder why the terminals are not giving reading?
 
If your serial number is above 4900, you should be able to check idle current between J754 and J760. It should adjust to 10mV after 15-20 minutes.
 
Well as it turns out when using the jumpers listed one channel adjusts fine and the other isn’t getting a reading. Well I’ve gotten it to say 0.02 and 0.04 for a second but then back to 0. I’ve also checked the potentiometer and it’s 1800 ohm to 0. Hmm what next
 
Check your solder connections on the adjustment trimmer.or on the test points themselves.

Well when I use the diode test I get a beep on all of the solder joints and components you mentioned, and on the test jumpers I also get continuity “beep” with the other end at the output transistors.

I visually inspected the solder joints and they look normal (for this age and type). The resistance for the trim pot tests about the same on the other end of the board through the solder joint. I’m getting a bias from 0.1-0.8 under operation at 50% volume and it keeps jumping around (speakers are connected).

Disconnecting the speakers has the same effect. Got any other ideas?

Should I just re flow the solder joint at the trim pot? Lemme try that and report back.

Thanks, Patrick
 
Usually I drive amps for ~15 minutes at 50% rated power and I monitor the bias current. If the bias current is maintained below the rated value (in your case it is 5mV/ 0.2 Ohm = 25mA) when the amplifier is hot, there is no risk of failure.

After thoroughly warming it up this way, do you turn off the volume, and monitor and adjust the bias current as it cools? So that it never is over the rated value throughout the temperature range? This way the bias current setting is lower than rated at some temperatures but never over. Is this method correct?

I like it it because it is repeatable and it ends my wondering what temp the amps should be at to set bias current.
 
I like your thinking Randy!
If the bias temperature compensation circuit worked perfectly, the bias current would remain stable at any temperature.
@ecluser had some great comments about 2270 bias in this thread, which I'm sure you have seen.
Tom
 
If the bias temperature compensation circuit worked perfectly, the bias current would remain stable at any temperature.
Since it does not remain stable, I've long wondered when the bias current measurement would be "valid". At the amp temp at "typical" listening levels? Too subjective. "Turn it on and wait 30 minutes"? Not enough to get many models up to temperature. Turn on the amp and leave it on until it stabilizes? Does not take into account what happens when the amp is playing and heats up.

The 2325 on my bench is getting final adjustments right now. I ran it for 15 minutes at 50% rated output, so it was good and hot. Then after removing the signal, for 45 minutes I checked the bias current setting, and any time it went above 15mV I dialed it back to 15mV (the specified value). I also monitored the temperature of the driver transistors. They would drop, then come up a little, then drop some more. The drop was not linear.

The result of the adjustments is the bias current is lower than specified at some operating temperatures. As low as 13.0mV. But this is the setting that insures that bias current does not exceed specification at operating temperatures up to 50% of rated output. "So there is no risk of failure" per @ecluser. If I'm getting this correctly?
 
Randy, I think you are on the right track.
In a perfect design, the bias compensation circuit would adjust the idle current to maintain it at the manufacturer's specification at any reasonable temperature. Some amps just don't track all that well, the 2270/2245 are really good examples of this.
What is of major importance to me is that the amp never goes into 'thermal runaway' and that the bias is never completely 'shut off' at 'reasonable' temperatures.
I check it with the amp just warm, then run the amp hard to make sure it doesn't runaway and that the bias is still present.
I check the distortion figures to make sure that the amp meets them both when hot and 'cold'.

Class AB amps require a small amount of bias current to eliminate crossover distortion, unfortunately it is very difficult to see crossover distortion due to the high amount of negative feedback.

To calculate the actual idle current, you would take the voltage you measure and divide it by the resistance. This would give you the actual current.
2245 bias voltage 10mV across (0.2+0.2)Ω (J754 to J760) 10/.4=25mA
2270 bias voltage 10mV across (0.2+0.2)Ω (J754 to J760) 10/.4=25mA
2275 bias voltage 10mV across (0.2+0.2)Ω (J754 to J760) 10/.4=25mA
Typical values for idle current that I have seen in service literature ranges for 10mA to 75mA.

Bipolar junction transistors (BJTs) Thermal Runaway, excerpt from the Wikki.

Leakage current increases significantly in bipolar transistors (especially germanium-based bipolar transistors) as they increase in temperature. Depending on the design of the circuit, this increase in leakage current can increase the current flowing through a transistor and thus the power dissipation, causing a further increase in collector-to-emitter leakage current. This is frequently seen in a push–pull stage of a class AB amplifier. If the pull-up and pull-down transistors are biased to have minimal crossover distortion at room temperature, and the biasing is not temperature-compensated, then as the temperature rises both transistors will be increasingly biased on, causing current and power to further increase, and eventually destroying one or both devices.

One rule of thumb to avoid thermal runaway is to keep the operating point of a BJT so that Vce ≤ 1/2Vcc

Another practice is to mount a thermal feedback sensing transistor or other device on the heat sink, to control the crossover bias voltage. As the output transistors heat up, so does the thermal feedback transistor. This in turn causes the thermal feedback transistor to turn on at a slightly lower voltage, reducing the crossover bias voltage, and so reducing the heat dissipated by the output transistors.

If multiple BJT transistors are connected in parallel (which is typical in high current applications), a current hogging problem can occur. Special measures must be taken to control this characteristic vulnerability of BJTs.

In power transistors (which effectively consist of many small transistors in parallel), current hogging can occur between different parts of the transistor itself, with one part of the transistor becoming more hot than the others. This is called second breakdown, and can result in destruction of the transistor even when the average junction temperature seems to be at a safe level.

I'm not an engineer, there are probably folks here with better insight on this.

Tom
 
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