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SpeakerFest! JBL/Phase Linear/HPM-100...

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Wow!!

Those Phase Linear Speakers looked Pretty nice too!! Anybody ever heard them?

Bart
 
Bart,

Since the speakerfest was at my place, I of course heard them!! :)

One of the main reasons for doing what we did was to compare my recently scored HPM-100's to thoots' Phase Linear 530's, which were an apparent Pioneer TAD Division reworking of the HPM-100.

Prior to this, we compared the Phase 530's to thoots' reigning champs, the JBL L150A's -- have a look here:

http://www.pbase.com/thoots/speakers

Lots of cool vintage speakers = a good time!!!

Jay
 
The galleries are great, but tell us about the sound. How do all of those speakers compare?
 
I have a pair of Phase Linear P-530 and a pair of HPM-900. Both are darn good sounding speaker systems. One pair is down in the family room, the PL's are up here in the LR. Both are ballsy, yet smooth and detailed.
 
Don, Bully,

When I acquired the HPM's a couple of months ago, I was mighty excited! The only thing I had to compare them to in the same size class at the time were ADS L810's and JBL L36's. The ADS' are of a different design philosophy and the L36's having only a 10" woofer really aren't competitive in the bass area.

Anyway, I was very pleased with the HPM's and thought they gave more of everything -- revealing high end extension, fundamental (not boomy) bass, and a general coherence that is pleasing. Still, there was a small, but persistent nagging feeling that there's *something* in the low/midrange area that isn't quite right. They seemed a bit 'lazy' and 'not sharp'. Still they were/are darn respectable speakers that I enjoy hearing.

However........

Having been to thoots' place before, and hearing his Phase Linear 530's, I began to wonder. Before scoring the HPM's, I classified the Phase's as the best bookshelf speakers I'd ever heard. Now, I wasn't sure. And since thoots hadn't heard HPMs since they were new, and wanted to take a listen again from a 'modern' perspective, we setup the meet for a direct 'sound off' between the HPM100's and Phase Linear 530's.

I can't speak for Bully, but thoots and I were unanimous --

The Phase 530's were noticably cleaner through out the range, The low bass was more defined, sounding more like real drum whacks. The HPM tended to make drum whacks sound more like a dull thud.

In the mid range, the Phase's were more coherent. There was more of a seamlessness to them than the HPM's which didn't integrate the crossover chores as readily.

In the high end, the Phase dome tweeter was smoother and had wider dispersion than the HPM cone tweeter. Here may be the prime error of the 530's. With the treble controls in their 'normal' position, they have the brightest, hottest upper end I've ever heard. Fortunately, this is easy to fix- just turn the control knob down to the 8 o'clock position. Still, I'd recommend good electronics or you'll hear the rough stuff in the highs

Conclusion --

The score is three-zip in favor of the Phase's. In reality, the differences were small, but still noticable in side by side comparison.
They're both dynamite speakers and I could be happy with either, but if I had the choice it would be the more refined Phase Linears all the way. To my ears they really get it right, integrating a terrific sense of smoothness, clarity, definition and refinement into the classic 'west coast' sound.

Hey, I'd better stop before this gets kicked over to the 'reviews' forum. :)

Jay
 
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That's a pretty fair assessment. My HPM-900's use the graphite modulus cone material, as against the carbon-fiber cones of the earlier iteration. Drum thumps and twacks are well rendered by my 900's. The PL-530's, though, do seem quite refined, and I've thought, as mentioned above, that the drivers have a very TAD look and feel to them. They came out about the time TAD was established.
Bass is well reproduced by both speaker systems. My big speakers here are the JBL CF150's with their 15-inch, sensitive woofer. At reasonable levels, the Pioneer and PL fare well with the big bruiser. For heavy, loud levels, of course, the JBL is full and easy and will pound your gut.
BTW, the HPM's are driven by my 200 wpc Denon POA-2200, and the PL's by my 250 wpc Yamaha M-80. Sometimes I have both stereos on and playing the same FM station, and coming up and down I am struck by how similar the sound.
I would loved to have been there (probably as much to have met you guys!) for the shootout.
 
Well, let me give you my thoughts about the whole shebang. Let's start with the whole cast of characters:

p1th0155.jpg


And, starting from the bottom of the food chain, we're definitely talking about the KEF C55's, the dark black things sitting next to the HPM-100's on top of the 4333 monitors. No treble at all. "Do the tweeters even work?" no treble at all. And, yes, they do work. And, no, they don't have any controls to adjust the tweeters. NEXT!!

Next up would be the JBL L80t's, I'm afraid -- the smallish "towers" in front of the 4333 monitors. Actually, the mid-to-upper range was fine, but Jay mentioned much less than satisfying sound from the bass department, and I didn't hear anything that would make me doubt that assessment. NEXT!!

That would be the Infinity RS 2.5's, the big, beautiful floorstanders on the edges of the picture. With the amazing EMIM mids and EMIT tweeters. To a certain extent, you could appreciate their sound -- there is really something special about that high end -- "transparent," I think you'd call it. But.... That's how you could describe the whole speaker -- "transparent," as in "no body at all." Switch over to anything else, and all of a sudden you have room-filling, satisfying sound. There was a real lack of coherence between the mids and the really quite underperforming-by-comparison bass. NEXT!!

OK, let's take a rest here. The speakers I've just gone through really have something "not good enough for prime time" to me. As Jay would probably call 'em, "eBay fodder." Now, I'll be making comments about the rest of the speakers, but these are all "dang well good enough for this old boy" -- they are fine, full-bodied, and very satisfying speakers. Some have more "character" than others, and that can be both good and bad, depending upon your preferences. So, just take that and run with it, and ENJOY!

Next up: The JBL L100's. If you've been paying attention, you'll notice that these don't have the proper LE5 midranges in them. No, I've been playing around with the 104H midranges I "stole" from my old 4312A monitors, and that's what's in the L100's right now. The "original specification" L100's have a very characteristic forward sound, and on some stuff they are absolutely dead solid PERFECT. But, on some other stuff, you could wish for a little less "forwardness" and a lot more "warmth." That's pretty much what the 104H midranges give the L100's, but I can still hear something in the crossover between them and the tweeters that just doesn't sound right. I'll be putting the LE5's back into them, and leave well good enough alone!

Next up: The Pioneer HPM-100's. Yep, Jay and I were very much in agreement during our little comparison. Just like the L100's, the HPM-100's do indeed have a "characteristic sound," but it's quite a bit different from the L100 sound. Frankly, it's a lot like the sound from any JBL with the 104H midrange -- it's a "darker" sound, with a kind of a sense that the sound is coming from an "enclosed space" -- there is a sense of "space" about them. This is different from "imaging," but it's a different kind of "sense of space" compared to "imaging." Bottom line, there's more of a "warmth" to the midrange, as opposed to the original-specification L100's very "forward" sound.

Next up: The Phase Linear P-530's. Switching to them from the HPM-100's was very eye-opening -- well, "ear"-opening -- first of all, the P-530's had a much more "open" sound. And, the bass is very nice and full and powerful -- kind of like the L100's very agile yet powerful bass, but with much more of a "foundation" to it. Otherwise, there's not much more you can say about the P-530's sound -- it wasn't "warmer" or "darker" or "forward" or anything -- just like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, it was "just right." Just very coherent from top to bottom, very clean and detailed, and nothing you could really point out to "describe" the sound aside from how much you just plain enjoyed it.

Jay touched on the one pretty amazing thing about the P-530's -- the tweeters. Folks, I have the things cranked down to "minus 4" on a scale with "0" at the default, and down to "minus 6" or all the way up to "plus 6." Yet, I've done very careful testing and matching with listening material that I've been familiar with for decades, and all of the cymbals and such come out just right, in the very same balance as they do with all the rest of my speakers. So, that is one VERY hot tweeter, if you like to knock the balance all the way over to the high end!

Finally, the 4333's pretty much took the cake in the roomful of speakers. Really, the sound is very much like that of the P-530's -- again, just very balanced, coherent, and clean. The 4333's are the "professional versions" of the L300 Summit speakers, and I really can't say I've heard from Jay's what I recall from my encounters with the L300's from three decades ago. Back then, I thought the L100's sounded more like "real live music" than anything else I had ever heard -- very much probably due to the fact that their forward nature essentially "puts the performer right in the middle of the room." But, the L300's always sounded "larger than life" to me -- just dripping with richness and a touch of sparkle on the top. But, Jay's 4333's have just been very clean, balanced, and coherent -- no "bigger than real life" at all. Now, perhaps that's because I always heard the L300's at several times the listening level as I've been able to hear Jay's 4333's, but for whatever that's worth, there you have it!

thoots
 
I thought I'd better do this last bit in a different message, so let's go one step further......

p1th0156.jpg


So, how do the JBL L150A's fit into the food chain? Well, while it's kind of hard to out-do the 4333 monitors, and I certainly haven't had a chance to directly a/b the two, I do have plenty of experience comparing them to the L100's, the P-530's, the ADS L810's, and quite a few other things.

And, it all boils down to which ones I'd like to take home and plug into the living-room system -- and the L150A's win by a mile.

To a great extent, they're much like the P-530's and the 4333's -- just very natural from top to bottom, and there's just not much of anything you can "point out" about any kind of noticeable characteristic about them. Except for one big thing -- the bass. I'll bet Jay will chime in along with me to say that the greatest regret about the 4333's is that "they just don't have that bass I want."

It's like the L150A's play with a whole extra octave of bass foundation in comparison to every other speaker we've discussed here. For instance, it's very common in popular music to have a bass drum hit along with virtually every bass note. And, the other speakers will give you that bass drum "whack" and some sense that there's some bass along with it, but the L150's give you BASS with the drumbeat -- a sense of bass that is absolutely, entirely missing with all of the other speakers. It is just "jumpin' up and down Martha" satisfying, and it makes all the difference in the world.

Also, the L150A's make every "bookshelf" speaker sound "boxy" in comparison -- like all of the sound is squeezed together as it heads your way. I've never known what the heck anyone was talking about when they said "boxy," but it's definitely noticeable when you compare something to the L150A's. There's just a relaxed, wide-openness to the L150A sound, as compared to that "all squeezed together" sound from the bookshelves. And, indeed, I'm considering everything from the big Phase Linear P-530's on down as "bookshelf" speakers.

So, the speaker gods were certainly smiling down at me when I made the deal to get a local pair of ultra-mint-condition L150A's. I'm just very satisfied with them!

Anyhow, I hope this helps you get a little insight on all of these speakers, and, of course, it's all just one person's highly biased perspective, and your mileage may vary. :yes: Again, as I mentioned above, these are all very fine speakers, and it has been an utter delight to lay hands on all of this stuff and have a great time listening to it. My little get-together with Jay was certainly an excellent way to spend an afternoon!

thoots
 
Interesting, because in the first few posts I noticed the 4333's and nothing was said about them. I wondered if they even got compared. Looks like a couple of the JBL's did the job. :banana:
 
My PL-530's certainly don't lack for quality output. Bass is nice and tight, and goes pretty deep. And, they're 'naked' sitting at least 3 feet from the floor sitting atop the big JBL CF150's.
The CF's were a mid-line series from the mid- to late-90s. The CF150 was TOTL and had an MSRP $1,000 the pair. Nice, big cast frame woofer, a 6-inch (or is it 6-1/2 inches?), and a mylar dome tweet. I was and continue to be thrilled by the general quality of sound they provide over an eclectic mix of music.
Down in the FR, where the HPM-900's reside, a pair of JBL L100's lurk. These have been a project, and I am using a generic late model JBL/INfinity mid range in 'em, and they don't exhibit that forwardness the original model is noted for having. They sound superb when driven by the Yamaha R-2000.
ooops, time to change the record.
 
Thanks for the pictures and the reviews !!!
What an awesome display of a great way to spend some quailty free time with some friends !!! :yes:

Gotta clean up all the drewl off the keyboards now.... :)
 
Great read! thoots, is that an SX-636 in the background? I wanted to say an 838, but I'm guessing 636. How do you like it? I have the 636 and it really performs, suprised me.

Ron
 
Ron,

yungin's-dad said:
Great read! thoots, is that an SX-636 in the background? I wanted to say an 838, but I'm guessing 636. How do you like it? I have the 636 and it really performs, suprised me.

p1th0157.jpg


That's actually Jay's SX-535, powering the main comparison test we're doing in this picture. With efficient speakers like these, it was plenty of power, and it sounded just fine and dandy to me! :thmbsp:

thoots
 
bolly said:
Nice pics thoots! :yes:

Yep, thoots was the manic picture-taker.... :D

Heck, despite the poor lighting conditions, he got much better results than I could ever have done, so I just stood around watching and listening while he snapped. :yes:

Bully, we would have enjoyed meeting you and having you over, but I doubt you'd enjoy yourself -- we're just a couple of boring speaker geeks.

Wait, on second thought, that's ALL of us -- you'd have fit right in! :thmbsp: :banana:
 
L-150A vs L-112

I bought the L-150A and the L-112 new in 1980 both I still own but the 112s are with one daughter on the west coast(Oregon) and the L-150As are with my other daughter on the east coast (Florida) both are superb speakers but. . .

In my mind I always prefered the L-112 to the 150, cleaner tighter sound although so similiar it is hard to tell them apart on most sources.

When I was using the L-150s the muddy bass *(compared to the 112s) finally forced me to buy the B-380 sub and crossover. After I took the low bass off the L-150As and ran the B-380 everything took on a whole new diminsion, much cleaner bigger sound I'll not soon forget.

Some years ago the company I work for started moving me all over the country and I left my big JBLs behind and they are still gone, might as well be as neither daughter would give up "their" JBLs. I will say both have had exceptional care over the years and are likely to continue to receive excellent care in the years to come.

Last year I bought another set of L-112s in mint condition, sounded great but not the same as I remembered. Now I enjoy my old JBLs during my visits. . . Got bragging rights anyway. . .
 
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