sound less full from 4 speakers than with 2 ?? help!
- Thread starter clairtone
- Start date
clairtone
ballers clique
GordonW said::gigglemad :gigglemad :gigglemad
OK- FOR THE RECORD: WHAT speaker pairs ARE we talking about here?!?!?!
Regards,
Gordon.
well the original post stated "2 at a time", so I guess it was any two at a time. In reality it was either the dm560's + dm602's OR dm560's + dm220i's OR dm602's + dm220i's etc
dc270
Now Off the Reservation
Just curious how te Larger Advent people that stack their multiples and swear the sound is incredibly better?
I have a small set of Design Acoustic PS6 that are augmented by some smaller Minimus 7's (stacked together)- the overall sound is much improved when both are engaged!
Seems to me that some pair up much better than others, possibly placement may have an effect too.
DC
I have a small set of Design Acoustic PS6 that are augmented by some smaller Minimus 7's (stacked together)- the overall sound is much improved when both are engaged!
Seems to me that some pair up much better than others, possibly placement may have an effect too.
DC
It was de rigueur at one time, but soon fell out of favor. Diehards remain, spreading their subjectivist faith, is all. Surely, someone has analyzed the alleged "improvement" and published the results by now. If not, bring a pair over, and I'll do it. :yes:dc270 said:
One might argue that stacking tweeter-to-tweeter creates a quasi-D'Appolito MTM alignment, however the offset between the tweeters playing simultaneously remains as a significant source of phase interference.
There's no denying that members of a pairing can augment each other when they offer strengths in different areas of bandwidth. See Motorstereo's post #16 here.dc270 said:
However, the result is much improved if their overlap is eliminated, or at least minimized, so they don't also interfere with each other. You can see in the measurements and references that the consequences of interference are fairly comprehensive in their impact.
Try some of that. Isolate what each is doing well and recombine those for an optimum result. Suggestion: buy an active crossover like Behringer CX3400 ($130 at Parts Express or your local Guitar Center, etc.) and multi-amp. You can split the elements up two, three, or four ways experimentally and identify what's working for and against you. :thmbsp:
melofelo
Addicted Member
perhaps you are getting a similar effect to that you would experience if you were to just run a single pair of speakers and have them facing each other..the acoustic waveform from one pair would collide and negate to some extent the acoustic wave form of the other...resulting in a reduction in apparent volume...and distortion of the signal before it reaches your listening position...
a stack of speakers firing towards a blank wall in a small room is basically like throwing 10 stones into a still swimming pool and watching the ripples that radiate outwards in circles from each stone...each expanding circular wave extend outwards and eventually bounce collide and break up when they meet another expanding circular wave also extending outwards towards the edge of the pool
think of the edge of the pool as the walls in your room..
eventually all these simultaneaous waves bounce off the sides of the pool back in towards the centre of the pool..
meeting other redirected waves on the way....for even more collision and refraction /diffraction
you get the picture...waveform chaos basically...
well imagine trying to make sense of the waves reaching you if were sitting very still in the middle of the pool...
for good stereo reproduction...all you need is a single pair of good speakers that suit your system your ears and your room...
even having other speakers in the same room not connected will have an 'effect' on the sound of the driven pair...and will actually re-radiate and reproduce some of the sound that the driven pair are creating...
it may 'sound' good or bad..but it will ultimately limit the reproduction ability of the 'driven' pair of speakers to work as the designer intended...
still..experimentation is half the fun of good sound...
i'd begin by subtracting speakers from the mix to see if it improves...
if you like the cool look of stacking but are not enjoying the sound... try grouping the tweeters from each stack by placing the top speaker upside down
...and try to have the tweeters at least at ear height...
some carpet or rugs or just try a very large dust sheet on the opposite wall to help reduce the reflected waves back into the path of the speakers might help somewhat..
also..try a few large empty cardboard boxes in the room if you have a minimalist decor or furnishing with hard floor and wall surfaces...
if you enjoy listening to good left [-middle- right] stereo...
i'd begin by subtracting...you may even find on some acoustic material that once you are down to a single pair...you begin to enjoy not only [left -middle - right]..but also the illusion of [close- near - not so near - further away] stereo depth reproduction..especially on older analog mastering..
done properly within your own listening environment...the illusion conjured up by even a small two way box or a well desinged three way if you have a fairly large room can become very addictive..:yes:
a stack of speakers firing towards a blank wall in a small room is basically like throwing 10 stones into a still swimming pool and watching the ripples that radiate outwards in circles from each stone...each expanding circular wave extend outwards and eventually bounce collide and break up when they meet another expanding circular wave also extending outwards towards the edge of the pool
think of the edge of the pool as the walls in your room..
eventually all these simultaneaous waves bounce off the sides of the pool back in towards the centre of the pool..
meeting other redirected waves on the way....for even more collision and refraction /diffraction
you get the picture...waveform chaos basically...
well imagine trying to make sense of the waves reaching you if were sitting very still in the middle of the pool...
for good stereo reproduction...all you need is a single pair of good speakers that suit your system your ears and your room...
even having other speakers in the same room not connected will have an 'effect' on the sound of the driven pair...and will actually re-radiate and reproduce some of the sound that the driven pair are creating...
it may 'sound' good or bad..but it will ultimately limit the reproduction ability of the 'driven' pair of speakers to work as the designer intended...
still..experimentation is half the fun of good sound...
i'd begin by subtracting speakers from the mix to see if it improves...
if you like the cool look of stacking but are not enjoying the sound... try grouping the tweeters from each stack by placing the top speaker upside down
...and try to have the tweeters at least at ear height...
some carpet or rugs or just try a very large dust sheet on the opposite wall to help reduce the reflected waves back into the path of the speakers might help somewhat..
also..try a few large empty cardboard boxes in the room if you have a minimalist decor or furnishing with hard floor and wall surfaces...
if you enjoy listening to good left [-middle- right] stereo...
i'd begin by subtracting...you may even find on some acoustic material that once you are down to a single pair...you begin to enjoy not only [left -middle - right]..but also the illusion of [close- near - not so near - further away] stereo depth reproduction..especially on older analog mastering..
done properly within your own listening environment...the illusion conjured up by even a small two way box or a well desinged three way if you have a fairly large room can become very addictive..:yes:
This has been a very insightfull thread for me. I had previously posted about some vintage Korting speakers I was running stacked with large Advents. The sound is excellent at low to moderate volume as the Kortings are very efficient and have beautiful midrange and top with no bottom to speak of. The Advents are running in their decrease setting augmenting the weak bottom of the Kortings. When the volume increases the missmatch in speaker efficiencies disturbs whatever balance exists between the pair and I get pronounced highs and lows all over the spectrum.
Would it be possible to run external crossovers with the internals already in the speakers or do I try to disable the Advent tweeter and Korting woofer?The Korting is a 3-way. Or do I just buy a sub?
Jorg
Would it be possible to run external crossovers with the internals already in the speakers or do I try to disable the Advent tweeter and Korting woofer?The Korting is a 3-way. Or do I just buy a sub?
Jorg
panhead
Mac owner for life.
clairtone said:
You need more wattage,add an external amplifier or even 2 external amps & you'll have all the impact you lost plus some,amps need not be expensive either,you can purchase some pretty good pro amps for less than $200 each.
Stacking or 4 cornering 2 sets of speakers does present a few challenges but they are easy to overcome & once you get it right there is nothing like it,ive ran 4 channel stereo for years & for the last few years ive been running 5 channel stereo,i'll never go back to a standard 2 channel set up for my main system.
While it's possible to improve the situation with external crossovers, disconnecting the HF in the Advents may be a workable option, depending upon the lowpass filter frequency in them, assuming there is one. If it's high enough to overlap with the midrange in the Kortings, there will still be problems. Low frequencies are less of an issue, at least insofar as direct radiation is concerned, because the wavelengths are long. It's room modes that mess with them. You want to leave the Korting woofers running so that they will mutually couple with the supplemental Advent ones.89-300ce said:
You're progressing logically to the bottom line here: If the purpose is to augment the LF, use a sub, which DOES have the appropriate response characteristics and crossovers to blend seamlessly with your mains. :thmbsp:
Tube Overdrive
New Member
Clairtone,
Your problem is not related to crossovers and different speakers playing the same frequencies.
Usually, for the best HI-FI quality, you would not want to play your 4 speakers at once since it will most likely result in worst imaging and increase the chances of cancellations at some frequencies. But this apply principally to very picky audience. Cancellations also happen with only one pair (if you move in the room, sometimes you'll find a spot where the seems to be no bass, while at another spot there may be too much). The potential for cancellations is just bigger with more speakers.
Playing your 4 speakers at once will result with a less accurate music reproduction, but it should also (usually) do what you wanted (bigger, fuller sound).
Your problem is your amp. I checked in the service manual and confirmed that like most amps, speakers A and B are in parallel. This amp cannot accept a load lower than 8 ohms. If you want to play 4 speakers at once with this amp, they MUST be 16 ohms or higher each. To make things worse, your speakers are not the easiest 8 ohms loads, since their impedance drop as low as 4.3 ohms at certain frequencies.
So basically, you presented your amp a very unfriendly load of 4 ohms, dropping to around 2 ohms at certain frequencies and possibly even lower on certain transients.
You probably did not crank it much for long, since your post would have been "I heard CRACK and then no sound..."
Keep in mind that if you blow up the amp, it may take the speakers with it.
So you'll have to stick with one pair with this amp. And make sure you don't use 4 ohms speakers.:nono:
Your problem is not related to crossovers and different speakers playing the same frequencies.
Usually, for the best HI-FI quality, you would not want to play your 4 speakers at once since it will most likely result in worst imaging and increase the chances of cancellations at some frequencies. But this apply principally to very picky audience. Cancellations also happen with only one pair (if you move in the room, sometimes you'll find a spot where the seems to be no bass, while at another spot there may be too much). The potential for cancellations is just bigger with more speakers.
Playing your 4 speakers at once will result with a less accurate music reproduction, but it should also (usually) do what you wanted (bigger, fuller sound).
Your problem is your amp. I checked in the service manual and confirmed that like most amps, speakers A and B are in parallel. This amp cannot accept a load lower than 8 ohms. If you want to play 4 speakers at once with this amp, they MUST be 16 ohms or higher each. To make things worse, your speakers are not the easiest 8 ohms loads, since their impedance drop as low as 4.3 ohms at certain frequencies.
So basically, you presented your amp a very unfriendly load of 4 ohms, dropping to around 2 ohms at certain frequencies and possibly even lower on certain transients.
You probably did not crank it much for long, since your post would have been "I heard CRACK and then no sound..."
Keep in mind that if you blow up the amp, it may take the speakers with it.So you'll have to stick with one pair with this amp. And make sure you don't use 4 ohms speakers.:nono:
Actually, it will virtually GUARANTEE cancellations, the frequencies of which shift with any movement of the listener:Tube Overdrive said:
The mechanism of room modes generating low frequency reinforcements and cancellations is reflection, not the direct interference from multiple sources under consideration here.Tube Overdrive said:
Louder, perhaps, for the same input, but hardly fuller, with so much of it missing.... :thumbsdn:Tube Overdrive said:
Good. Thank you. We can put further speculation regarding series connection to rest here.... :yes:Tube Overdrive said:
Because it worked well enough for Clairtone to make the requisite discernments via critical listening to his system?Tube Overdrive said:
What is the connection between his amp and the subject performance issues that would warrant deeming it to be any real, let alone the major or sole, source of the problem?
Tube Overdrive
New Member
Zilch said:Actually, it will virtually GUARANTEE cancellations, the frequencies of which shift with any movement of the listener:
The mechanism of room modes generating low frequency reinforcements and cancellations is reflection, not the interferences from multiple direct sources under consideration here.
I know that using 4 speakers will guarantee cancellations, just like using 2 speakers will guarantee cancellations also. To minimise cancellations, one would need to listen to a single speaker in mono... And interaction with the room would still create peaks and dips in the frequency response depending of the location in the room.
Depending of what the listener is looking for, increased cancellations might not be that much of a problem compared to the increase in bass output. In my teenage years, I was using multiple speakers very often for loud partys. In these situations, I must say that imaging, definition and flat frequency response were the least of my concerns...:tongue:
For critical listening, I agree that a single pair will be more accurate, and that's why I got a bigger pair of speakers for the living room, and I spread the multiple smaller ones in multiple smaller rooms...
Zilch said:
Fuller in the bass... Trying to pressurise a big room with tiny 8 inch woofers is just not cutting it for many persons. Getting a second pair at work will generally provide more bass if the amp is up to the task and the polarity is correct.
What most persons mean by fuller sound is more bass. Bass that can fill the room. Not necessarily a flat frequency response.
Lack of bass seemed to be the main concern in the original post. Not the higher distortion all over the audio band and lack of definition he was also getting but did not notice as much.
Zilch said:Because it worked well enough for Clairtone to make the requisite discernments via critical listening to the system?
What is the connection between his amp and the subject performance issues that would warrant deeming it to be any real, let alone the major or sole, problem?
That is the point. He could not make the requisite discernments via critical listening of the system because his amplifier is simply not up to the task. It's impossible for an amplifier rated to work with a minimum load of 8 ohms to sound good when presented an impedance varying between 1-4 ohms. The lower impedances are generally located in the lower frequencies, where most of the energy of the musical signal happens to be located also.
The amp is struggling to keep it's output voltage as close as possible to a perfect amplified copy of the input signal. But with this way too low impedance, you just suck it dry by pulling way too much current. This causes a lot of distortion creating harmonics all the way to the highest frequencies, polluting all the audio band. Frequently, when the amp does not blow first, the tweeters will fry first since they are fed with all these junk harmonics, increasing the power in their own power band.
The resulting sound you can expect from such a setup is thin and simply bad. The bass is weak because the amp don't have the muscles to push it. (Well, in this case not really only a lack of power but mainly an improper load. Even an amplifier rated at half the power but designed to work in low impedances would do better) The resulting harmonics increase the treble level, wich itself increase the appearence of "no bass compared to the loudness of the treble". This type of sound is harsh and ear fatiguing, and if the amp is kept working like that for too long or pushed even louder, it will blow.
To really compare a 4 speakers setup vs 2 speakers setup, It's necessary to have an amplifier that will not struggle. In this case, He would need a second amp, or an amp able to work with low loads, even if the power of the amp is not increased.
With 4 of these speakers, even an amp able to work into 4 ohms would have a hard time if pushed a bit. If I would have to runs these four speakers with a single amp and push it, I would find a small PA amp designed to work happily with a 2 ohms load.:yes:
It's your "just like" I'm taking issue with; there's significant distinction here -- playing multiples creates direct source interferences across the entire spectrum in each channel, as well as between them. I believe we can agree that those generated by reflections are second-order, particularly if room placement is attentive to minimizing early reflections at the listening position. What's in the stereo mix itself is intentional, and inconsequential by comparison....Tube Overdrive said:
If inadequate bass is the issue, then I think we can also agree on this: The answer is to augment with a proper sub, or pair, and use the mains as mid/high boxes, relieving them of the burden of reproducing that range of frequencies where their capabilities are marginal from the outset.Tube Overdrive said:Fuller in the bass... Trying to pressurise a big room with tiny 8 inch woofers is just not cutting it for many persons. Getting a second pair at work will generally provide more bass if the amp is up to the task and the polarity is correct.
What most persons mean by fuller sound is more bass. Bass that can fill the room. Not necessarily a flat frequency response.
Lack of bass seemed to be the main concern in the original post. Not the higher distortion all over the audio band and lack of definition he was also getting but did not notice as much.
Result: Better mids, better highs, with more than enough clean bass to balance with them.
[And no more phase interference.... :thmbsp: ]
AudioAGAPE
New Member
stacking
hey if you want fuller sound add a preamp or wire each set to another amp ! I HAVE 4 AMPS HOOKED TO MY SETUP EACH MAJOR AMP IS PREAMPED ,IT WILL ALSO GIVE YOU MORE CONTROL OF THE OVERALL EQ . TRY IT, YOULL LIKE IT !!:thmbsp:
hey if you want fuller sound add a preamp or wire each set to another amp ! I HAVE 4 AMPS HOOKED TO MY SETUP EACH MAJOR AMP IS PREAMPED ,IT WILL ALSO GIVE YOU MORE CONTROL OF THE OVERALL EQ . TRY IT, YOULL LIKE IT !!:thmbsp:
