Sorry, I missed that one back in June or didn't realize its importance. That probably influenced your choice to use the 7 ohm in version 3.5.
AK Design Collaborative - Insignia-Class Economy Speakers (a.k.a Indignia)
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
Sorry, I missed that one back in June or didn't realize its importance. That probably influenced your choice to use the 7 ohm in version 3.5.
The differences aren't huge, but they are audible.
I can't pretend what I like is best, so I go with the measurements.
['Til Ray says different....
]
Ok, Z. I did some "engineering" with the resistors I have on hand and got a 7ohm rigged up. I borrowed the laptop for a few minutes and got a quick curve. Room effects notwithstanding, I like it. It sounds really good. I have another care package coming from PE with an assortment of resistors in that range but right now I'm inclined to call it done with the 7ohm. We can call resistor changes "listener preference tuning" in the future.
What say you?
Ray
What say you?
Ray
Attachments
Was away all weekend without internet so it's good to see y'all are zeroing in on a design. Had a spare 15 minutes so I primed the cabs. Still have to install the interior brace, although I did brace the back corners already.
Waited long enough, so I'll order the drivers and Zilch's version 3.5 xover today, while the drivers are still on sale.
Waited long enough, so I'll order the drivers and Zilch's version 3.5 xover today, while the drivers are still on sale.
I think you're safe. The only difference between what I'm running (and last measured) and v3.5 is the big inductor. I'm running a 20ga air core and Z is running iron core. It shouldn't make much difference.
Go get 'em, Bob.
Ray
Now that someone led me to the diagram (see previous post), I'm trying to interpret the diagram. This is my first time so please go easy on me.
Am I correct in assuming that the positive side/speaker terminal/path is on the top at the left side of the diagram?
I'm also presuming the positive connection to each individual speaker is on the top. Am I right?
Thanks in advance for a response.
Am I correct in assuming that the positive side/speaker terminal/path is on the top at the left side of the diagram?
I'm also presuming the positive connection to each individual speaker is on the top. Am I right?
Thanks in advance for a response.
yup.
What I typically do, for simplicity's sake, is to run ground (negative terminal) down the middle of the board I'm using and put high pass on one side and low pass on the other. Note, this only works on a 2-way. I use a big enough board that the part layout resembles the circuit diagram. If you have size constraints then sometimes it goes south but it keeps me from making stupid wiring mistakes (usually). Make sure you put the inductors at right angles to each other. Since there are only 2 you can lay one down and stand one up and you'll be fine. I use hotmelt glue to stick stuff down and also zip ties on heavy stuff. RTV silicone type adhesive works well too.
Ray
What I typically do, for simplicity's sake, is to run ground (negative terminal) down the middle of the board I'm using and put high pass on one side and low pass on the other. Note, this only works on a 2-way. I use a big enough board that the part layout resembles the circuit diagram. If you have size constraints then sometimes it goes south but it keeps me from making stupid wiring mistakes (usually). Make sure you put the inductors at right angles to each other. Since there are only 2 you can lay one down and stand one up and you'll be fine. I use hotmelt glue to stick stuff down and also zip ties on heavy stuff. RTV silicone type adhesive works well too.
Ray
I say "DONE," Ray, and there's yet more good speakergeek fun to be found measuring both channels running simultaneously, toed in and not, tweets inboard vs. out, above and below axis, plugged or ported, with and without boundary reinforcement.
I have notes from my preliminary analysis of all that, but may redo it for final presentation here.
Somebody wants to implement switched-resistor HF attenuation, I showed how to do it in another thread here, including the requisite special three-way miniature toggle switch to make it happen....
If I had to choose only one pair of speakers to keep here, there'd be quite a few others (including some very expensive ones,) on the block ahead of the Indignias; they just sound damn good, and I'm not putting any qualifiers like "for what they are" on that.
Official Serial Numbers issue upon builders posting pics of their Karma Indignias in this thread.
Show us your INDIGNIAs, now, folks... :thmbsp:
Just finished them a couple hours ago. My son and I did the xovers today and it was a great bit of quality time.
First attempt at cab building so don't look too closely. I used "hammered copper spray paint."
Zilch and Ray are right, they do sound damn good. I'm liking them a lot. A real lot.
Incredibly big sounding. Detailed and lots o' bass, but not too much. Very listenable. Sounds fantastic with my old McIntosh MA230 (SSpre/tube power).
More detailed review soon.
Thanks a bunch Zilch, you hit a home run!
Ray, thanks for your help, couldn't have done it without you.
Strongly recommended.
First attempt at cab building so don't look too closely. I used "hammered copper spray paint."
Zilch and Ray are right, they do sound damn good. I'm liking them a lot. A real lot.
Incredibly big sounding. Detailed and lots o' bass, but not too much. Very listenable. Sounds fantastic with my old McIntosh MA230 (SSpre/tube power).
More detailed review soon.
Thanks a bunch Zilch, you hit a home run!
Ray, thanks for your help, couldn't have done it without you.
Strongly recommended.
Attachments
Snade
humble AK member
Including A/B comparison w/Insignia.
Karma Indignia S/Ns 5 and 6 now belong to Robie. There was no stopping him once he figured out how to build the boxes.... :thmbsp:
Thanks for the support, Gentlemen. Just wanted to share the experience I had when we listened to them for the first time.
Things always take so much longer than they should and after 5 hours of hard work trying to finish them (with lots of help from my son), we realize my son has to leave shortly to pick up my daughter at work. Then, to add to the pressure, my wife announces dinner will be served as soon as they get back (I know, family is more important). I really wanted my son to hear them before he left (and a chance to play at least a song or two) so it was a bit harried at the end of the build.
With 5 minutes to go, my son moved the Genesis out of the way and we hook up the now finished Indignias to the old MA230 and.............. nothing.
Dead silence. Only the buzz of the overhead fluorescent lights.
After we replace the Indignias with an Insignia, still nothing. I'm convinced I wired the xover wrong and/or fried the old McIntosh. I take a deep breath and look at the McIntosh switches. Either the Tape Monitor rocker or speaker switch (can't remember) was set to a middle/shorted position. My son tells me he remembers bumping the switch removing the Genesis. Put the Indignias back in the system and Houston, we have sound, with 3 minutes left. Now we're no longer emotionally crushed after our hard work.
We sit down for a minute and try to evaluate the sound.
Disappointment.
Good range but very disjointed sound with no sound between the speakers and horrible imaging. Now I'm wondering if somehow the xover is wired out of phase. Son leaves to pick up my daughter and I try to collect my thoughts.
Suddenly, I remember the MA230 also has a Phase rocker switch I can use to correct any out of phase wiring. I get up to reverse the phase and notice the Phase switch is set in the 180 degree, "out of phase" setting. I move the switch to the 0 degree, "normal" setting and the image snaps into place and the middle fills out. They sound the way they should.
Hate to say it but, "haste does make waste."
Full review as soon as the family wakes up and I can listen again.
Things always take so much longer than they should and after 5 hours of hard work trying to finish them (with lots of help from my son), we realize my son has to leave shortly to pick up my daughter at work. Then, to add to the pressure, my wife announces dinner will be served as soon as they get back (I know, family is more important). I really wanted my son to hear them before he left (and a chance to play at least a song or two) so it was a bit harried at the end of the build.
With 5 minutes to go, my son moved the Genesis out of the way and we hook up the now finished Indignias to the old MA230 and.............. nothing.
Dead silence. Only the buzz of the overhead fluorescent lights.
After we replace the Indignias with an Insignia, still nothing. I'm convinced I wired the xover wrong and/or fried the old McIntosh. I take a deep breath and look at the McIntosh switches. Either the Tape Monitor rocker or speaker switch (can't remember) was set to a middle/shorted position. My son tells me he remembers bumping the switch removing the Genesis. Put the Indignias back in the system and Houston, we have sound, with 3 minutes left. Now we're no longer emotionally crushed after our hard work.
We sit down for a minute and try to evaluate the sound.
Disappointment.
Good range but very disjointed sound with no sound between the speakers and horrible imaging. Now I'm wondering if somehow the xover is wired out of phase. Son leaves to pick up my daughter and I try to collect my thoughts.
Suddenly, I remember the MA230 also has a Phase rocker switch I can use to correct any out of phase wiring. I get up to reverse the phase and notice the Phase switch is set in the 180 degree, "out of phase" setting. I move the switch to the 0 degree, "normal" setting and the image snaps into place and the middle fills out. They sound the way they should.
Hate to say it but, "haste does make waste."
Full review as soon as the family wakes up and I can listen again.
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Heh. Half the fun of DIY is figuring out what we did wrong, a Skywave-rider specialty.
"The guys will have their dinner served in the workshop tonight, please, Dear...." :yes:
MUhahaha!
:guitar:
Every DIY family soon learns the "Shared Experience" drill....
MUhahaha!
:guitar:
Every DIY family soon learns the "Shared experience" drill....
Just got done "sharing" some Indignia bass with my son who evidently is very tired. His bedroom is right above my utility room/office/workshop and the daylight's a wasting anyway.
Comparison to Insignias: After affixing the Indignia nameplate on the front, and contemplating what the rear serial number plate should say ("Engineered at Zilchworks (and spa?)", I put on a Brian Eno's Another Day on Earth with an Indignia on the left and and Insignia on the right, with the MA230 integrated set to Mono.
As much as I like my $40/pair "stock" Insignias, the Indignias best them in every category, except price. No contest. The Indignias have much more detail, air and bass. The Insignias, while polite and listenable, sound congested and somewhat muddy compared to Indignias.
Total cost of my Indignias:
I figure I have about $170-$180 invested in my Indignias, all told ($25 was for paint and I now have enough polyester batting and hook up wire to last a lifetime).
Building cabs: Built the cabs myself using 3/4" MDF from Home Depot. While they'll cut it for free, you get what you pay for. I would have actually had matching dimensions if I cut it myself with a circular saw. My top and bottom panels are full width and the side walls are simple butted joints (not mitered). The front and back panels, cover the entire front and back.
I glued and used dowels for all joints.
Getting started: After all the panels are cut:
To join top to bottom in a simple butted joint: Start by drawing a line along the side of the top of the top panel indicating the 3/4" thickness of the side wall beneath that side of the top (Call it the left side). Draw a matching line on the along the right side of the top of the top panel. Then drill dowel holes centered in the areas marked by the pencil lines through the top of the top, but without the sidewalls beneath them.
These holes centered in the left and right 3/4" areas through the left and right side of the top provide a template for drilling matching holes in the top of the side wall you want to attach underneath that side of the top panel.
Apply glue where the underside of the top meets the top of the side wall. Using a corner clamp align the top to the first side wall so that it is square (90 degrees). Then drill through the holes through the top into the top of the side walls beneath them so the dowel holes align. Then pound glue coated dowels into the holes.
Then using that same technique, work your way around the cabinet. Clamp the top, bottom and sides until the glue dries.
To attach the rear panel: Draw a line around the perimeter of the outside of the back, 3/4" from all edges. Drill holes centered in that 3/4" outermost area through the back and into the back of the sides, back of the top and back of the bottom. Pound glue coated dowels into the hole and clamp. When the glue is dry, sand/fill all dowel holes.
Reinforce the back corners: To reinforce the inside of the back corners, glue small triangles of scrap MDF to the back, side and bottom (and side and top) corners.
Horizontal brace: I also used a single horizontal brace between side walls in the middle of the cabinet.
For attaching the front baffle to the cabinet: Glue small triangles of scrap MDF into the insides of the front corners so they are flush with the front. These small triangles provide an anchoring point for screws through the front corners of the front baffle.
PM me if these instructions don't make sense.