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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Russellc said:
Jackgiff,
does the goldsound woofer "woof" as well as the JBL driver from the L 100 family? Wondering if it does the really powerful bass the way JBL driver did?

Thanks, Russellc
Click to expand...

Hi Russell, I have not heard an L100 woofer, but I doubt that the Goldwood would be as strong on the lower bass, from remembering the FR plots that have been shown here. The Goldwood is so smooth and responsive however, that for less than $40 each, it has to be a best buy among modern stuff.

I love the pix of your A-7 and EconoWave setups. And your descriptions of how they sound. The EconoWave is a winner, isn't it?
 
jackgiff said:
Hi Russell, I have not heard an L100 woofer, but I doubt that the Goldwood would be as strong on the lower bass, from remembering the FR plots that have been shown here. The Goldwood is so smooth and responsive however, that for less than $40 each, it has to be a best buy among modern stuff.

I love the pix of your A-7 and EconoWave setups. And your descriptions of how they sound. The EconoWave is a winner, isn't it?
Click to expand...

The econowave is excellent. All one needs is a woofer in a box, add 170 or so for econowave parts, and you get one excellent speaker. What an economical way to create a first rate speaker, it would be nice if PE would donate the parts to see if anyone would want to do one of those "pass it around" deals for those who want to experiment. One listen and you know the potential is there for one very fine sounding set of speakers. I cant imagine how anyone could get this level of performance for anywhere near the price, or considerably more for that matter.

As to the Goldsound, its begining to sound like there is the begining of "econowoofer" box end of the project. Now people can do up the entire system if necessary!:thmbsp: Thanks for the kind comments on my systems!

Russellc
 
jackgiff said:
Your pair used to hang in the corners of the garage, but they didn't have EconoWaves in them yet. They sounded so very sweet even with the Trusonic components, and being untuned in such a harsh environment. Garages don't have carpet, overstuffed furniture, and drapes. At least not mine. I can only imagine what they will sound like in that configuration with the E-Waves. Maybe you can tell us.



S99's came to my mind, as well. The LE14A's really do a nice job in that volume. And another pair just came my way. Next week after being refoamed, they will eat away at me, screaming for a chance to be heard in the Baronets. But the Goldwoods are so good in them, and LE14A's aren't really necessary, are they? Like putting a 440 Hemi in a small Fiat. Yeah, Baby!!



That is exactly how the CX-3400 is being used. It has CD compensation at the push of a button, but it is not being used here. I think the summation is due to the very flat response of the 10 inch Goldwood woofer. It is a super nice sounding woof, and has been played crossed at 2 KHz with a Goldwood tweeter. That will probably become the speaker package that will be used in the pair to be made for my nephew. The cabinets may be more bookshelf sized, and will probably by veneered in bubinga, which has been laying around in my shop for a long time.
Click to expand...
Sorry to be so thick here, but do you mean the 3400 is only using its low frequency leg? What I think I am hearing is that no, you use the 3400 for both low and high frequencies, but the high frequency leg feeds into the passive crossover, sort of "double crossed over"? I dont have an operating electronic cross over, but I would have thought the 3400 would supply the "crossover" function and the passive would only need the compensation part.
sounds like I've a lot to learn about how the electronic crossover can be used.:yes:

Thanks,
Russellc
 
jackgiff said:
Finally got the big Baronets upstairs, and hooked up next to the DIY 4430's that were built a couple years ago. The DIY's cost about $2,000 to build, while the EconoBaronets cost about $300. The system is powered by a Marantz 3800 preamp and 510M amplifier. The 3800 preamp contains speaker switching to handle two pairs of speakers. Seemed like a big waste when they were purchased, but it does make the A/B comparison much easier. Only thing better would be for mama to get trained to switch them on command.

The DIY's are built in JBL L200 cabinets, and drivers are 2235H, 2431H, and the waveguide is same as Econo's, but 1.5 inch throat, and costs about $100 each. The EconoBaronet uses a JBL 2214H and Selenium D220Ti, with the $10 JBL waveguide.

I expected the DIY's to win hands down. Wrong! The 2214H surprised the crud out of me by making better bass than the 2235H on the first pass. One port of the L200 cabinet was plugged with a Zilchplug, to get extended bass. That made it sound unnatural, or "boomy." It seemed it was trying to go somewhere it didn't really want to go. Removing the Zilchplugs restored the bass back to where it wanted to be. Now the 2235H bass is maybe a bit stronger than the 2214H's, but the smaller JBL is certainly up to the task. Bass is now a tossup. Fast and tight on both units.

The HF end was also a big surprise for me. I almost wanted the 2431 to outperform the D220. And for awhile it seemed as though it did. The HF just sounded smoother to my ears coming from the DIY. But again, after listening to several CD's that I am familiar with, when the 2431 sounded better on a passage, going back and comparing the 2431 with the D220 showed that the D220 was every bit as clear. And on one CD, Odyssey by the Sahnas Brothers, the sound of their fingers moving on the guitar strings was simply more audible on the EconoWave. Mind boggling. I love the HF response from both speakers, and maybe the DIY still seems "better" to me, but after lots of stopping and starting to test passages, "better" doesn't seem to be a measurable term. Since the 2431H's cost so much more than the Seleniums, my mind seems to be struggling to think the Econo could measure up. But it does.

I am certainly not through comparing, but the EconoWave seems to be able to measure up to some pretty stiff competition. If you have thought about trying the EconoWave, just go for it. It won't dissappoint you.
Click to expand...

"It wont dissapoint you." Well put. While this thread has had lots of input, This didnt surprise me as I was in on it fairly early. I still feel more people should try these things. Not only can it be done cheap, ( 470 total in my case), the result is nothing short of amazing. I have rarely heard a speaker with such clarity, and at this price point is just silly good! For those of you who have longed for a really top notch monitor, here is your chance to own one. No one has been sorry yet!:yes:

I've been in DIY for quite a while, and this is one of the best speakers I personally have built, and while there may be a few better ones out there,
they are so silly expensive you just as well buy a car! At this price, all members with any budget at all should get on board. They really are that good. "It wont dissapoint you", "It sounds better than it deserves to"....these type of lines flow throughout the thread, and for good reason.

Jackgiffs last set only cost him 300. It equals his set that cost him 2,000 to build, and he knows how to do it right. About the price of a fair vintage 2-way bookshelf with reconing. These will wipe the floor with them! Its just a chance to hear a really good speaker with proper crossover that the average guy can easily do. Clarity, bass, imaging, all there in spades. Anyone who has built a set should have their area members over for a listen. I know several have posted who have visited Zilchlabs. Everyone seems to have become an instant convert. If this project interests you even remotely, spend 170 or so and order up the parts. YOU WILL NOT BE DISSAPOINTED!

Amen,

Russellc:music:
 
The difference is it's modern drivers and waveguides in "Smart" designs.

We can't buy this stuff as complete speakers; gotta build it.... :thmbsp:
 
Zilch, any interest in trying a charge coupled version of the crossover?
I know they use double the caps, I just dont know how to do it, or where to hook up the battery.:dunno:

russellc
 
I must say this thread scrambled my head more than any I have read in a VERY long time! I'm reasonably technical....I am pretty decent with a soldering iron but my exposure and understanding of sound theory is apparently critically limited LOL

Whats cool is that those here who are well versed can collaberate and create a design that not just works...but works well.

bottom line........build a pair of sweet sounding speakers for about $300.....sign me up
 
Russellc said:
Zilch, any interest in trying a charge coupled version of the crossover? I know they use double the caps, I just dont know how to do it, or where to hook up the battery.:dunno:
Click to expand...
I'll draw it up for y'all what want to try it.

Generally speaking, compression drivers sound better running on them.... :yes:
 
dirkmc3 said:
I must say this thread scrambled my head more than any I have read in a VERY long time! I'm reasonably technical....I am pretty decent with a soldering iron but my exposure and understanding of sound theory is apparently critically limited LOL

Whats cool is that those here who are well versed can collaberate and create a design that not just works...but works well.

bottom line........build a pair of sweet sounding speakers for about $300.....sign me up
Click to expand...

You have hit it right on the head. This project is just stupid good sounding, absolutely wonderful. The bargain aspect of this is what will make you grin like you lost your mind, :banana: YOU WILL NOT BE DISSAPOINTED! Go for it, it is a simple project with tons of help available if you get stuck for any reason. Ask questions where it doesnt make sense, you will get answers and learn as you go. Search my posts, I ask all kinds of dense questions! And include pics and tell what you think. You will be glad you did.:thmbsp:

Russellc
 
Zilch said:
Well, I THINK this is right:
Click to expand...

A couple of dumb questions.

1 Which cross over is this a cc version of, the model for use with drivers greater than 95 db, or the one for less than 95 db?

2 The schematic shows a non bi amped version and shows what appears to be
two batteries. Since it notes " two batteries must be used if bi amping" I assume that this isnt two batteries and both + ends go to the + on the battery, and the two negative ends go to the - side?

Russellc
 
Russellc said:
A couple of dumb questions.

1 Which cross over is this a cc version of, the model for use with drivers greater than 95 db, or the one for less than 95 db?

2 The schematic shows a non bi amped version and shows what appears to be
two batteries. Since it notes " two batteries must be used if bi amping" I assume that this isnt two batteries and both + ends go to the + on the battery, and the two negative ends go to the - side?
Click to expand...
It's the "Standard" crossover:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83308&d=1205870935

10 uF in series with 9.1 uF = 4.76 uF, for example.

I'm showing two batteries, so if you split the HF and LF sections, and biamp, they are not connected through the (-) battery terminal, which some amps cannot tolerate, i.e., common "ground."

If you're just using one amp, you can do it with one battery, a 1.5M - 2.2M resistor separately and individually connecting battery (+) to each of the capacitor pair junctions, and (-) common for all.

Wire the L-Pad as I have shown, also.

The battery drain is negligible. A 9-V lithium will last 10+ years.... :yes:
 
Zilch said:
It's the "Standard" crossover:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83308&d=1205870935

10 uF in series with 9.1 uF = 4.76 uF, for example.

I'm showing two batteries, so if you split the HF and LF sections, and biamp, they are not connected through the (-) battery terminal, which some amps cannot tolerate, i.e., common "ground."

If you're just using one amp, you can do it with one battery, a 1.5M - 2.2M resistor separately and individually connecting battery (+) to each of the capacitor pair junctions, and (-) common for all.

Wire the L-Pad as I have shown, also.

The battery drain is negligible. A 9-V lithium will last 10+ years.... :yes:
Click to expand...

Thanks, that clarifies greatly, I couldnt figure out the cap values, I thought you just doubled them! I'm sure I'll have another question or two before I flip the switch so to speak.

Russellc
 
Russellc said:
Thanks, that clarifies greatly, I couldnt figure out the cap values, I thought you just doubled them! I'm sure I'll have another question or two before I flip the switch so to speak.
Click to expand...
Well, you don't want to deviate significantly from the design spec, if possible. A pair of 10 uF would give 5 uF equivalent, so I tweaked the values a bit to get closer.

Another approach is to use series/parallel pairs, but then you've got four times as many caps instead of twice as many, and that can get out of hand fairly quickly....
 
dirkmc3 said:
bottom line........build a pair of sweet sounding speakers for about $300.....sign me up
Click to expand...

Everyone needs to remember that the $300 doesn't include cabinets. I happened to have the cabinets from a previous project, so didn't count the cost of them in the Econowave price. Most DIY'ers probably have an old pair of cabinets laying around that would suffice.

And now, we are going to have the eCConowave. Wow, that blows my mind. These are supposed to be Econo, but they sound so nice, why not spend the extra money looking for that last bit of performance. With these guys, you can certainly afford to go the extra mile.

Lets us know how they sound, Russell.
 
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