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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

E'Wave Crossover Sims

Jack and Wayne are gonna be pleased to see this:

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The two curves are 4.667 dB apart.

[In living color on MY screen.... :p: ]
 

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Way cool Zilch, would you like to try 2 more?

I made some calculations for one right in the middle of the 2,
then one for more high freq gain if higher sensitivity woofs used.

---

(Going by the naming designations in your first high pass)

Middle output Xover

R1 20 ohm
R2 22.5 ohm
C3 1uf

Higher output Xover

R1 28 ohm
R2 7.5 ohm
C3 2uf

The higher output one is what were presently trying on Andy's Valencia's.
There L-pad's are now in basically the center position to provide good gain.
 
You need to get SPICE working.

Compensation slope is wrong in both cases:
 

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I agree and I will, really seems strange to me the middle one would be off.

Everything is just halfway in between all the values, if the low one works,
an the high one works then mathematically the middle one should be just that. Humm...
 
Study Wayne's exposition of the circuit again, and his calcs for attenuation.

I played with the values a bit, and they always go to 0 dB at ~200 kHz.

For your high one to work, it's gotta start down (or end up) at maybe 50 kHz.

Jack knows how to calc it, but he may have pushed it to the max already.... :dunno:

In detail, the slopes are different. See here:
 

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OK I see by the graph's you posted on 1363,
The middle one looks very very close, but the high one is quite off.

As you say it may be that we just can't squeeze any more output an still get good compensation.
(What I was afraid of and it may just be with the seleniums a 99db woof is as high as you can go)

I'll be working on getting my spice to work as you have it then experiment more, plus working with
xover sim software with RFD an ZMA files for more designing.

Thanks for throwing those together and posting the graph's.
 
Zilch on the bode plot graph's you post, is that something you see while in Spice?
Or do you have to save the data as a certain file type then open it with something else?

EDIT:
Nevermind, I found it to a degree and am getting somewhere, I can see graph's on my screen! YAY!

OK time to crash, but I'm getting somewhere at least.
 

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Kegger said:
Zilch on the bode plot graph's you post, is that something you see while in Spice?
Click to expand...
Yes, in color, though. I posted a screen shot @ #1316, less the controls. I typically show the circuit and the waveform separately, and crop the waveform screenshot. The B/W ones are "Copy to clipboard" and post-processed in Paint. Those are easier for readers to view, but only suitable if it's clear which waveform is showing what. I also resize to 640 x 480 .jpg, as required, for single-screen viewability, and to minimize consumption of AK's memory space; my own files are stored in higher res.

Just up your SPICE resolution, now. I use 1000 or 10,000 points, depending on the complexity of the waveform, and rarely show anything lower than -30 dB.... :thmbsp:

*******

While I claim to "Just click buttons here," there's quite a bit of behind-the-scenes production effort involved in coherently presenting the information for readers. Same with Dave, Jack, Skywave, and others doing it here. Those aren't just "Click and post" slam-dunk presentations they do, even after all the work involved acquiring the data is complete.... :yes:
 
Well I'm figuring some things out, as far as the spice sim goes.

Yep can't agree more with how time consuming and the effort it takes to do some
of these things, no doubt it can look easier then it really is, been doing this a while
now and the learing curve on some things can be quite long, Spice took some doing
for me to start using building amp circuits but once your past the initial understanding
an get your models built up it does lessen the time an effort it takes to do it.:smoke:
 

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Russellc said:
Would that size and tuning also work for the 2213H?
Click to expand...
Yes, but a bit boomy. Tune lower (~25 Hz) to mitigate some of that.

They need really, really big boxes to play flat vented, which is why we use smaller (~2.5 cuft) closed boxes for them.

You know the drill: put in the port(s) for boom, and close with ZilchPlugz for more "accurate" bass.... :thmbsp:
 
Andyman said:
What program should I use for the box build and tuning?
Click to expand...
I use Bass Box 6 Pro, but there's also a "Lite" version of that.

WinISD should allow you to change the port(s) if you noodle around in there. Other freeware is available, as well.

The most important thing missing in some programs is excursion. Sometimes the suggested alignment, or one you come up with yourself, looks good, but the driver has run out of excursion at 70 Hz.

[Derate to 2 Watts, and it'll work fine.... :p: ]
 
Zilch said:
Yes, but a bit boomy. Tune lower (~25 Hz) to mitigate some of that.

They need really, really big boxes to play flat vented, which is why we use smaller (~2.5 cuft) closed boxes for them.

You know the drill: put in the port(s) for boom, and close with ZilchPlugs for more "accurate...." :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

I will likely use the 2.5 sealed, but man the tower is nice and raises the waveguide closer to ear level. Thanks Zilch, soon I should join the ranks of rta users, I am re-reading the thread in this regard, but will no doubt have many questions.

Thanks again for the time and advice,

russellc
 
Russellc said:
I will likely use the 2.5 sealed, but man the tower is nice and raises the waveguide closer to ear level.
Click to expand...
The first one I show there is ~2.5 cuft. total. Draw up a tower. That one's 14" wide X 39.5" high (including 1.5" foot) X 12" deep = 2.78 cuft gross internal volume, by my quick calc.... :thmbsp:
 
Totally random data point to throw into the discussion (well, related...)...

Was trying to sort out a bunch of parts I was provided to build into a high-efficiency system here... I had thought about PT waveguides or my Pyle Pro "Seeburg project" horn flares. But, the guy who owns the stuff had provided a EV 8HD flares with what looked to be Utah or University phenolic-diaphragm horn drivers (sort of Klipsch-Cornwall-esque combo). So, OK... to be fair, I tested that combo, before just summarily throwing them out...

Well, frankly... that sucked. Nothing between 6KHz and 8KHz (BIG dip), and a significant resonance at 900Hz and 9KHz (BIG peaks). Also some smaller dips here and there... looked like some sort of resonant sequence of dips. Not good.

I then decided to try one of my Pyle/Seeburg flares on that Utah/University driver. Big mistake. Even worse. Not flat ANYWHERE.

As a last resort, I then thought of trying a Selenium D210Ti on the EV 8HD flare... WHOA. :jawdrop:
RULER FLAT from 2KHz to 18KHz... with a small dip at 19KHz and just a little ripple (like +- 2 dB or so) between 800 Hz and 2KHz. VERY nice. I mean, almost TEXTBOOK FLAT, with no compensation. I wish I had the graph to post up... but the guy who was running FuzzMeasure for me shut down the computer (losing the files) before I could get him to save them... :(

In any case, however, if someone wants an alternative horn-driver combo, that requires nothing but a second-order highpass filter at about 1100-1500 Hz or so and an L-pad... I can say, the combo of the D210Ti driver on the EV 8HD flare WORKS!!!

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Russellc said:
Would that size and tuning also work for the 2213H?

Thanks,
Russellc
Click to expand...

3.5 cubic feet, yes.

Would need more like a 25-28 Hz tuning though, from experience. I've done 3.2 cubic feet tuned to 26 Hz with a 123A-3 (effectively identical driver) and had it sound very nice...

The graphs show it having a bit of "hyped-up" bass (a moderate bass peak), but it sounds good, IRL...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Hi Guys,

Future E'Wave-er here :banana:. My WGs were supposed to ship a week ago from Cali but come to find out they only left yesterday:thumbsdn:

Now, I know they won't make it all the way East by the weekend and I'll be itching to cut some holes, 'cause I'll have some time.

Can you guys help me out with cut out (and overall) dimensions for the almighty econo? ... or point me to a dimensional drawing that I haven't found yet...

I'll be using the 2206H in 2 ft3 - haven't decided on sealed or vented. I'll be using subs so I'm thinking an underdamped closed box might be better. This woofer sits right at 95dB and I've already built the >95 xover. I wonder if the <95 will be better?

Many Thanks,

Marc
 
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