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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

djnagle said:
got pics Gogo?
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i'll take a pic when i get home.
still at work watching the clock:D

i'm really surprised that i still have this job...all i do is look at craigslist, audiokarma, ebay, eat lunch, listen to pandora, bring in audio stuffs to clean and play around,....and maybe do a little work if i have time:D my co-workers always roll their eyes and look at me like "what the hell are you up to now?". i love my job.:thmbsp:
 
dnewma04 said:
The acoustic centers of the CD and woofer are offset in the design. The woofers is closer than the tweeters which tilts the response up. The overall coverage pattern is 15 degrees. It's ~ 30 degrees, IIRC. There would be nulls at 22 or so degrees above center and 7.5 degrees below. At 12' or so, that would make the nulls above a 6' tall person's head and around their ankles if the speakers were setup with the center point at their ears while sitting.
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4430 is tilted ~8° up:

While the response is smooth at all angles, the flattest response is, by design, on-axis and above. This offers a greater number of listening positions when the system is mounted at or below ear level; for mounting above ear level, the system can be inverted to offer the same advantages.
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The nulls are -10 dB at 30° up and 20° down.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/443035.pdf

Madman007 said:
Zilch - I respectfully bow out and let you 'win' an Internet argument which has a subjective component - liking the sound reporoduction - at it's core. I am not going to bother any more. The last thing I'll say though is that after all your statements about modern design it turns out you use a pair of what many would consider vintage JBL monitors!
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Indeed, archetypal E'Waves from 25 years ago:

http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20081004/4573.pdf

Wherein, and of further note:

The frequency response of the new monitor is extremely uniform, even at angles sufficiently off axis both horizontally and vertically to be unlikely listener positions. However, this results in more uniform room reflections, which contributes to a stable virtual source that does not change with frequency. In addition, increased toe-in can be used with no degradation of the direct sound field. If enough toe-in is used for the axes of the systems to cross somewhat in front of the listener, then the level precedence effect can partially offset the time precedence effect. This contributes to a more stable stereo image as the listener's position varies along the length of the control board. [Emphasis added.]
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[Uhmmm, 45°, perhaps, E'Wavers? :p: ]
 
First listen:

-Eico HF-87 poweramp
-California Audio Labs cdp directly connected to the Eico
-Altec 12" 414z 16 ohms in the "Seville" cabinet
-E'wave/Selenium horn/driver
-95db+ efficiency crossover variant

cd's played:

-Madeleine Peyroux - half the perfect world
-Giuliano Carmignola - vivaldi violin concerto
-Miles Davis - best of...
-Bucky&Frank - moonglow
-Vince Guaraldi - greatest hits...
-Maurice Gendron - Bach cello concerto

i really don't know how to intelligently describe the sound....., but let me try, and keep in mind that i was running a full blown active tube biamp set up for atleast last 7 months, and the sound i got was already more than spectacular.

with E'wave, the sound was just GRAND. sound stage opened up atleast 50% wider. imaging is amazingly clear and well defined. compared to the 811 horns and the biamp set up i was using, let me just say, a lot of crap just got wiped off, and feels like someone just opened the window wide open. the sound is incredibly stable and solid. i just can't understand how this sound can come out of this little horn and the cab size i used...... literally, it took me a while to get used to the sound.

i do feel the need to tweak the xo a little, and i'm not saying that what i experienced was like discovering Jesus, but this is pretty much revolutionary considering the size of the speaker set up and how it created such GRAND overall sound. if i had done a blind test, i would've guessed that i was listening to a very large fully horn loaded altec or JBL set up - i mean one of those huge speakers.

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Update:

after more than a month of everyday listening, i still think these are by far the best sounding speakers i've ever connected to my various systems. yes, even compared to some of the huge altec models which, to me, lacked smoothness that these Ecowave produce.

i've cleaned them up a little by installing the crossovers inside each cabinet and played around with the crossover a little also tilted the horns a little.

some more pictures.
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If off-axis sound is not important to you, if you only care about the performance on axis, then constant directivity horns and waveguides may not be important to you either. The whole purpose of the technology is to create a sound field that is uniform over a wide area rather than strictly on axis.
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Hello Wayne

Not sure where you were going with this. I didn't say that I considered off axis sound as not important. I was only answering the question. All designs will have nulls in the crossover region. The whole idea is to keep them out of the listening window. The listening window in the horizontal axis can be quite wide. The vertical axis is typically much narrower for obvious reasons.

Lets take a highly successful design like the JBL 4430/35 monitors. It used a symmetrical 100x100 CD horn. Looking at the AES paper for the design the nulls are 50 degrees apart and the axis is tilted up. If we take an asymmetrical horn, something like a 2370, the actual distance between the woofer and the horn for the same 1K crossover point gets much smaller. Let's say 1/2 the distance although it could be less.

When you plug the new distance into the equation in the text you basically double the angle between the nulls to 100+.

What's wrong with original 50 degree null spacing?? They are clearly outside the vertical listening window.

Rob:)
 

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I've been tweaking my Xover in as well the past few days, I wanted more from my HPM
woofers as I still felt they weren't quite high enough an raised the guides just a tad, the
improvements are gutairs play better from the woofer plus vocals are a bit smoother, I
do need to test everything an see where I'm at but I can hear the improvements though.

Not huge changes in the xover but getting the woofer to play a bit higher then matching
the waveguide by tweaking it in just a bit does seem to blend better then previous.
 
Robh3606 said:
LOL not bad for a $10 waveguide. I have to try a pair one of these days.
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Heh. You're one of the original Wavers as I recall, Rob, the first on Lansing Heritage to give PT Waveguides a good listen and adopt them.... :thmbsp:

gogofast said:
"WTH!!??... holyshizzzzzzldaaaaamn!!!!
:yikes::yikes::yikes::jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:
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And a double "Heh" for Gogofast!

I don't understand why it took an hour to kick in. Let us know what you figure out about that after more sessions, please. :dunno:

[You're clearly up to the ZilchLab crossover construction challenge.... :p: ]
 
mainly because the power amp wasn't warmed up properly. i was just too eager to test 'em out. anyways, more i listen, the more i can identify the sound and mentally map the sound.

i will most definitely try different crossover point by switching the caps. 414's, which i didn't think much highly of before, sound amazing in this set up. i'm gonna have to do a few more things like damping the cab better, checking the phase, and etc... this is really great stuff.:thmbsp::thmbsp:
 
Wayne Parham said:
If off-axis sound is not important to you, if you only care about the performance on axis, then constant directivity horns and waveguides may not be important to you either. The whole purpose of the technology is to create a sound field that is uniform over a wide area rather than strictly on axis.
Click to expand...

Robh3606 said:
Not sure where you were going with this. I didn't say that I considered off axis sound as not important. I was only answering the question. All designs will have nulls in the crossover region. The whole idea is to keep them out of the listening window. The listening window in the horizontal axis can be quite wide. The vertical axis is typically much narrower for obvious reasons.
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That statement was not meant for you, but rather for anyone that might not care about off-axis nulls. Some only find the on-axis response important, and do not think so much about the spectral balance of the reverberent field.

I agree with your idea of the most desirable pattern. I like fairly wide horizontal coverage, but not very tall vertically. A 90x40 pattern seems most useful for typical listening rooms, and I suggest the vertical nulls be set outside this range. I further sugest that HF coverage be limited to the area within the nulls, so there isn't a weird anomaly in the middle of the pattern, casuing an unnatural tonal balance in the reverberent field. Limiting the vertical angle at HF also reduces floor and ceiling slap.
 
I now have four of the horns to play with but I don't know what woofers that I have that would produce the best results. I have--
2 x 2235
2 x 2205
3 x 2220
4 x E110
2 x k120
2 x k110
2 x evm12l
2 x ev sro
4 x ev model 4 cabinets
2 x energy pro 22 cabinets
So many to choose, so little time!
 
I think the EVM12L does a fair job of covering up into the 2khz range if I'm not mistaken. Jack and Zilch are the JBL guys, they'd probably be able to comment more accurately on their abilities. 2235 is meant as a "subwoofer" so I wouldn't be surprised if it would struggle to get up into the 1khz range smoothly.
 
It can get up to 1k as used in the 4430/4435. It can also be set-up as a subwoofer. Overall a very capable and versatile driver.

It's a floorwax and a desert topping.

Rob:)
 
jaybird said:
I now have four of the horns to play with but I don't know what woofers that I have that would produce the best results. So many to choose, so little time!
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2235H is the 4430 woofer, and I believe it's generally agreed that the 1 kHz crossover in that venerable monitor is a "push." It almost doesn't matter, though, because the bass is so hugely delicious.

You're in a good position with JBL woofers there. I'd build with the 2205s, but also a pair of B380 subs using the 2235Hs to go with. You could swap the 2220s for the 2205s and compare.

EconoWave is more like 1.6 kHz, 1/2+ octave higher than 4430; that's tough territory for most any 15" LF driver to cover, and why many E'Wavers are building with 14s, 12s and 10s.

Your other JBLs are musical instrument drivers, really. That doesn't mean they're not good, rather, it's merely that their tonality is more appropriate for use in alternative applications.... :yes:
 
gogofast said:
with E'wave, the sound was just GRAND. sound stage opened up atleast 50% wider. imaging is amazingly clear and well defined. compared to the 811 horns and the biamp set up i was using, let me just say, a lot of crap just got wiped off, and feels like someone just opened the window wide open. the sound is incredibly stable and solid. i just can't understand how this sound can come out of this little horn and the cab size i used...... literally, it took me a while to get used to the sound.
Click to expand...
Have you figured this out yet?

What driver were you using on 811Bs?

Andyman said:
BTW, Kegger thinks I should go with 2 smaller ports and I was thinking of maybe moving the drivers up another inch or so? I've got a piece of MDF left over for a new motorboard, so that's no problem. Comments??
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Build your second one that way, and compare, then make your third baffle according to those findings.... :thmbsp:
 
Sounds like a plan.
Surrounds should be here today, so I can hopefully get them up and running right tonight.
 
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