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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

That's been my thinking when looking at the project as a whole, if I've got a high frequency
driver with high sensitivity I do not want to throw it all away on some low sensitivity woofer.

Yah the Waveguide and CD are what the systems design goals are but I also see this as an
fairly high sensitivity system and want to utilize that feature as well, not just for low output
amplifiers but the great dynamics that come with high efficiency as well.

My goal was to find woofers between say 92 and 98db sens to mate to the wave, I'd like to
upgrade the present HPM woofers for something with higher sens, but it's what I had at the
time that I could use quite easily, it works great but I would certainly prefer higher sens.

I believe dynamic range and compression characteristics should be matched, just like other attributes. If you use a low efficiency woofer with a compresson tweeter, the midwoofer enters compression long before the tweeter does. This means the dynamic range doesn't match.

The whole goal for me wasn't just to match directivity, but all the other attributes too. Amplitude, directivity (horizontal and vertical), dynamic range, power handling, compression and resistance to enter distortion - all are things that should be matched, in my opinion.

That's why I think a 50w 106dB compression horn with 10dB padding and a 90x40 uniform pattern is a perfect match with a 500w 96dB 12" or 15" woofer crossed over around 1-2 kHz, where directivity matches. Everything matches, directivity, amplitude response, dynamic range, all match. Simple system that sounds great. Been one of my favorite configurations for many years.
 
Count me in. I read the thread with much skepticism. What can a $40 CD and a $7.50 waveguide do? My 811Bs and 806s are full of muscle like MrT is! Well. I am really impressed. That's all I can say. I am extremely satisfied. My pursuit of 3DB may be coming out of my OCD. :D

Same thing I thought when I compared it to the 511B and 802 8g on my other system. I was wrong...surpasses them in every respect, well, except for "imaginary gonadatrophic effect" as Zilch coined the term:D

Russellc
 
Audio Karma Classic

"imaginary gonadatrophic effect"
That was so funny. My wife was reading the post and she was on the floor too. I say the man came up with a classic that will be remembered by many. I wonder how I am going to break this news to diehard altec friends. They are not going to like it at all!
 
That was so funny. My wife was reading the post and she was on the floor too. I say the man came up with a classic that will be remembered by many. I wonder how I am going to break this news to diehard altec friends. They are not going to like it at all!

You can still appreciate your Altecs like you'd a classic car or old radio.
 
You can still appreciate your Altecs like you'd a classic car or old radio.
I agree. They look really cool. Have friends over. Pull out the Altec horns. That will impress them. :thmbsp:
 
Altec 414s

By the way. My 414s sound gorgeous. To me the mid and the bass sound almost perfect. I love them.
 
By the way. My 414s sound gorgeous. To me the mid and the bass sound almost perfect. I love them.

One of these days, try pairing the B&C DE250 compression driver with your Altec 414's. You'll want R1=16Ω, R2=16Ω and C3=0.47uF with that combo, because it's an 8Ω driver. It's very smooth and extended, a nice sounding driver.
 
That's right, exactly.

There is only one crossover schematic. Select the values of R1, R2 and C1 depending on how much attenuation is required.

If you think about it, that's how it always was. You had two schematics, but the only difference between them was the values of R1, R2 and C1. Now you have a chart of values, so you can pick the right values for any level required from -6dB to -20dB.

Does this mean that the version ( I think the > 95 version) with the 1.5 cap in the compensation is off? Or just arriving at the same place with different components? Starting to get it, just a little residual confusion!

Russellc
 
That was so funny. My wife was reading the post and she was on the floor too. I say the man came up with a classic that will be remembered by many. I wonder how I am going to break this news to diehard altec friends. They are not going to like it at all!

It was odd, being such an A7 fan.....super big box w/cool flares, big 511B horn, altec fave, the 802 8g....yeah like this cheapass wave guide will compete! I'm so sure! Quite an eye opener it was, almost like an optical illusion! Zilch was right again! Altec is what it is, and I love it for that.
Econowave with JBL 2235H ( or 2225H for that matter ) simply kicks its ass in EVERY way...well except the IMG effect that is. Zilch also has stated in this thread that 511B actually out does 811B in this regard, uh IMG Effect that is!
I'll take his word on it

Russellc
 
Zilch also has stated in this thread that 511B actually out does 811B in this regard, uh IMG Effect that is!

I'll take his word on it
How many times do I have to SAY it?

MEASURE! ;)


That's been my thinking when looking at the project as a whole, if I've got a high frequency driver with high sensitivity I do not want to throw it all away on some low sensitivity woofer.

Yah the Waveguide and CD are what the systems design goals are but I also see this as an fairly high sensitivity system and want to utilize that feature as well, not just for low output amplifiers but the great dynamics that come with high efficiency as well.
We're back to system performance objective tradeoffs here. Generally speaking, if you want to use a high efficiency woofer, it's not going to produce extended bass in a rational alignment.

The answer is to use two of them in 2.5 mode.

[Maybe and sometimes.... :yes: ]
 
My ESS E-waves are complete. Here is the story as it unfolded. I only bought the ESS AMT 1Cs for the Heil tweets and planned on baying the rest of the bits….but then I started reading the Econowave thread and I was a goner.
Here are the ESS’ as I first saw them (paid $200.00 for the pair) notice the missing PRs and crappy grills.

IMG_32711.jpg


IMG_3273.jpg


I put the wave guides on top, after taking off the Heils just so see if they had promise….they did, in scads...and that was with the original ESS crossovers!!!. After ginning up the crossovers (thanks for the parts Bauhausler) and sticking them on top as well as the horns just to see how they sounded I was floored, and, that was without the replacement PRs. Urizen PMed me offering a pair of unused PR kits for a very reasonable price (thanks Urizen), so I tore the cabs apart and repainted the black parts and sanded and restrained the wood veneer, (thanks for the stain Kegger)

IMG_3304.jpg


IMG_3305.jpg


I also recovered the grills with a sheer black “speaker cloth” from Jo Anne Fabric (that is what they call it and that is what it is…..$20.00 for enough to do 3.5 grills). I cut holes in the back of the cabs for the double speaker post plates and mounted them. I redid the PRs and put them in, and mounted the horns and crossovers.

IMG_3342.jpg


IMG_3344.jpg


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I started out with the lower eff version of the crossovers and because I ended up bi-amping, I did not need the reduce horn signal so I just swapped out the parts ( R1, R2, and C3) and I am now getting much more SPLs out of my horns. I then (upon Kegger's suggestion) took C2 to 6.3 vs, the 12uF it calls for on the schematic. That brought up the upper vocals in the woof and just filled in the area a bit. At first I was running the woofs with an Adcom GCF510 and the horns with my 300B. Kegger also brought over some of the foam he is using in the throat of his horns and scupled plugs for mine. Those make all the difference in the world. You can crank up the volume and the highs sound just as good but with no extra sharpness. The bass was unbelievable…way down to the lowest bass note without rolloff, the mids were as clear and dynamic as you would expect from horns with ABSOLUTLY no horn sound. The high are sweet, sweet, sweet. After a while I started feeling fatigued from the bass so I took out the Adcom and I am now running the 300B on the woofs and the Decware Zen on the horns. The bass is just wonderful so detailed and creamy to the ears and if you want to crank it, it will punch the breath right out of you. The horns with the Zen amp sound very rich, detailed, and present. Here are the finished products. Actually I still have to redo the other grill but I am waiting for a larger time window so I can make a picture tutorial to post of the web. It took me three hours to figure out how to redo them, but once I figured it out, it went smooth. The top of the grills had a piece of thick cardboard in the recessed top but I am going to replace that with glass so I can show off my crossovers.

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So thanks to Keg, Urizen, Bauhausler, and all of you who took the time to perfect this project. Cheers.
 
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Those look grand Dennis!
I'll have to make it over there one of these days to give them a listen.

I've been working on the finish on my 2nd cabinet and should have pics up early next week. I've decided to do all the woodwork on the cab before I swap the drivers in to minimize the down time; I'm listening to my MDF prototype #1 and Birchply #2 while Birchply #3 is getting prepped.

The cab frame is all stained and I'm working on the lacquer now; 5 coats of gloss Deft on now so I'll be sanding it smooth tomorrow and probably be moving on to the veneer on the face. I'm going to move the ports to the rear so the face can show off more of the rosewood, and Kegger really likes how the birch-ply took the mahogany stain, so together they should be pretty visually stunning. Plus a new motorboard w/o ports will allow me to use my circle cutting jig and router for a much rounder woofer cutout than the current jug sawn one.

Then I can start messing with the L60Ts...:D
 
Those will be stunning Andy. Yes, by all means, come on over. This weekend I will be cutting and grinding on marble for the DIY turntable Newman and I are working on. Give me a call. Cheers.
 
try pairing the B&C DE250 compression driver with your Altec 414's
I actually thought about doing that. May be someday...Christmas is coming. Hmmm.

D! Great looking speakers.

Congrat!
 
Does this mean that the version ( I think the > 95 version) with the 1.5 cap in the compensation is off? Or just arriving at the same place with different components? Starting to get it, just a little residual confusion!

I would stick with the R1/R2/C1 values in the chart. I know they'll work well. The other values might too though, since Jack worked them out and Zilch modeled them in Spice. But Zilch said he simplified the compression horn impedance as a pure 8Ω load. That doesn't take into account complex reactance or even voice coil inductance, and this might make a difference. So I think I'd stick with the values from the Pi chart.
 
We're back to system performance objective tradeoffs here. Generally speaking, if you want to use a high efficiency woofer, it's not going to produce extended bass in a rational alignment.

The answer is to use two of them in 2.5 mode.

Agreed.

Another good setup with high-efficiency woofers is to incorporate subs, so you can distribute bass sound sources to smooth room modes.
 
Stupid spice question

Wayne,
When you derived the attenuation values using spice for your Pi crossover, you calculated values specifically for either driver option. And so when you came up with values for the Econowave crossover, you must have looked at the Selenium driver specifically in Spice. Is that correct?

In other words, substituting another driver is not acceptable without running the numbers?

I thought some aspects of compensation in a compression driver were generic.
 
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