The Advent Loudspeaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
marantzfan
...
Enough already. Lets just watch and see what Zilch has planned for these. You guys can go debate how good/bad advents are in a new thread. I really don't want to see this one get closed because of two dude's bickering!
AlleyKat
Super Member
Yes, I'm not picking on them unfairly
scratch2. I do hear potential in the New Advents, it's just sorry that it hasn't been realized. My hope is that an appropriately designed crossover can tame the tweeters and throw some of that high end energy down to the mids.
Fran604g
Love at first sound...
Thanks Celt, I really want to see this one through fruition...:thmbsp:
Thats's why it only took 10 minutes, of course.
Typically, listening and tweaking happens now.
I need more drivers to put the pair together; they're coming next week.
I suspect these have bigger bass than the Bauhausler would find pleasing, for example....
Hi Zilch,
I built the original 12" x 6" econowaves using OLA's during the Christmas break. As shown above, I notice a change to the woofer section component values from the ZLH17 project but used with an Advent woofer. Is this change applicable (and are you suggesting) to the original Ewaveguide or just for the smaller waveguides?
Thanks,
John
I built the original 12" x 6" econowaves using OLA's during the Christmas break. As shown above, I notice a change to the woofer section component values from the ZLH17 project but used with an Advent woofer. Is this change applicable (and are you suggesting) to the original Ewaveguide or just for the smaller waveguides?
Thanks,
John
Paratima
E'Wavin'
I suspect these have bigger bass than the Bauhausler would find pleasing, for example....
Bauhausler said:
I don't know, actually, but I'll do more investigation of that once I have more drivers next week. Clearly, in the highpass, both the PE 7" and the JBL 8" need more HF compensation than the standard E'Waveguide to play the top octave flat, and though I've never done a direct comparison, which I will do, they do not play as low. I'm reluctantant to force them lower, because 1) I see the Selenium driver resonance already influencing the response where we are, 2) it's virtually a given that these smaller waveguides would exhibit an undesireable coloration at lower frequencies due to their size, and 3) though I haven't measured it, it's a good bet that they also lose pattern control at lower frequencies, as well. Thus, the HF response characteristics become controlling in the crossover region, they are different there, and the lowpass is of necessity different to match up with it optimally.
I'd prefer not to speculate as to what's going on in the lowpass, but rest assured that I have manipulated it, observed what happens, and heard the consequences. These presently have huge bass playing them in freespace, and sound quite good. Pete B has earlier determined that stock Large Advents need BSC to bring up the bass response in this alignment; there's none necessary here, and, if anything, like the Bauhausler, I'd be working to reduce the bass. I'll post more about this once I know more, but I don't believe anyone building using the original Masonite woofers is going to be wanting more bass response than this.
On which point, it's noteworthy that the Bauhausler built using New Advent woofers, and despite everyone's contention that they have the same response, I'm going to continue suspecting otherwise until I make comparative measurements. I now have access to a pair of these, as well, and will be making that determination once they are refoamed.
Does any of this mean that anyone should hold off upgrading Large Advents with E'Wave, standard or 8" square? Not in my book; the difference in the high-frequency response charcteristic is substantial, and stunning. If we ultimately determine that a different lowpass is desireable, it's just an inductor and a capacitor to update, and we'll all have learned up close and personal how a speaker's voice may be altered by changing these components. Stay tuned.... :thmbsp:
Paratima
E'Wavin'
BSC?
Basking Shark Capture? Bald Sagittarian Complex? Birmingham Southern College? Barcelona Supercomputer Center? Binary Synchronous Communications?
The Bauhausler said he "could" run with the L-pad cranked all the way up. That tends to make me think his woofer is running pretty hot! As soon as I get some electrical parts in here, I may get to find out, myself!
Baffle Step Compensation.
If you run without boundary reinforcement, as up on stands and out from wall(s), you attenuate the mids and above at an appropriate rate and frequency as determined by the baffle width to bring the bass into balance.
Most all vintage acoustic suspension speakers were designed for use in conjunction with boundaries to augment the bass. If you use them in the "Audiophile" alignment instead, they may sound "thin" in bass response without BSC relative to how they sound with boundary reinforcement.
As we've seen, however, for some listeners and environments, this may be a preferred performance.... :yes:
If you run without boundary reinforcement, as up on stands and out from wall(s), you attenuate the mids and above at an appropriate rate and frequency as determined by the baffle width to bring the bass into balance.
Most all vintage acoustic suspension speakers were designed for use in conjunction with boundaries to augment the bass. If you use them in the "Audiophile" alignment instead, they may sound "thin" in bass response without BSC relative to how they sound with boundary reinforcement.
As we've seen, however, for some listeners and environments, this may be a preferred performance.... :yes:
Paratima
E'Wavin'
Oh! Ah. Thank you, Dr. Z.
I run my ZLH-17's up on some really nice 16" stands that I got from PE. I intend to do likewise with my EWGAdvents. So I shouldn't have to worry, yes? As long as I have sufficient Acousta-Stuf inside and the tweets properly dialed in via the L-pad. Wonder how much polyfill I'll need. Think I'll recalculate the volume on those Advents. Wonder if the Bauhauser balanced his with an SPL meter or just by ear.
Hmmmm. This acoustic stuff sure has a lot to think about. :scratch2:
I run my ZLH-17's up on some really nice 16" stands that I got from PE. I intend to do likewise with my EWGAdvents. So I shouldn't have to worry, yes? As long as I have sufficient Acousta-Stuf inside and the tweets properly dialed in via the L-pad. Wonder how much polyfill I'll need. Think I'll recalculate the volume on those Advents. Wonder if the Bauhauser balanced his with an SPL meter or just by ear.
Hmmmm. This acoustic stuff sure has a lot to think about. :scratch2:
We've had several discussions of fiberglass vs. other damping materials here recently, and I believe the consensus among those having technical expertise regarding this issue has been that fiberglass is the preferred material for use in acoustic suspension alignments; it's not merely absorbing internal reflections in this application. e.g., Large Advents. The subject is well covered, with experimental determinations, in Dickason.
In vented alignments, the advantages are not so clear, and since different materials are better absorbers at different frequencies, I can certainly see value in employing several types in the same cabinets, even, if desired.... :thmbsp:
In vented alignments, the advantages are not so clear, and since different materials are better absorbers at different frequencies, I can certainly see value in employing several types in the same cabinets, even, if desired.... :thmbsp:
I had the pleasure of hearing these Advents today and found them to be quite enjoyable. Zilch was concerned that the bass response was too great, but to my ears they sounded juust riiight. That is to say, well balanced--Neither high nor low frequencies were overpowering. As with most of the projects at Zilchlab, these are the kind of speakers that you casually sit down to listen to for a few minutes and inevitably find yourself listening to music with for hours and hours.:thmbsp:
Original vs. New:
Original 10" Advent Masonites play ~2 Hz lower, 32 Hz @ -6 dB, both are below 30 Hz at -10 dB.
A pair of new D220Tis (#10 and 11) came in today. #2 is now nearly a year old. Selenium's holding the response uniformity well over time in these, and this highpass is sound, as I previously also confirmed in the KLH-17 project:
Inverting the HF phase (connecting it in-phase, in this instance,) tells us the acoustic XO frequency is 1.876 kHz in these, and the acoustic axis of the two drivers is 2" below the waveguide center, toward the woofer, with nothing anomalous in the minimum phase measurement, Black:
Here it is with New Advent woofer:
And here's the components that make it happen, pending PE getting the 20 Ga. 0.6 mH air core back in stock. It's a pair of Mills 30-Ohm in series making up R1:
How much LF comp have I built into these? 5 dB @ 500 Hz, looks like:
Compare to stock Advents:
I'll do a direct comparison with a foam-damped ULA and bullnose NLA once the cabinets get here; I've only got the NLA woofers right now. My chamfered OLAs are presently fiberglass-damped.... :yes:
Impedance:
Minimum impedance is 6.2 Ohms @ 93.5 Hz. As with the smilar ZLH-17, tube enthusiasts may desire to add some parallel fixed resistance to lower the peak; 82 Ohms (Org) = Zmin 5.8 Ohms, 40 Ohms (Yel) = Zmin 5.4 Ohms:
Original 10" Advent Masonites play ~2 Hz lower, 32 Hz @ -6 dB, both are below 30 Hz at -10 dB.
A pair of new D220Tis (#10 and 11) came in today. #2 is now nearly a year old. Selenium's holding the response uniformity well over time in these, and this highpass is sound, as I previously also confirmed in the KLH-17 project:
Inverting the HF phase (connecting it in-phase, in this instance,) tells us the acoustic XO frequency is 1.876 kHz in these, and the acoustic axis of the two drivers is 2" below the waveguide center, toward the woofer, with nothing anomalous in the minimum phase measurement, Black:
Here it is with New Advent woofer:
And here's the components that make it happen, pending PE getting the 20 Ga. 0.6 mH air core back in stock. It's a pair of Mills 30-Ohm in series making up R1:
How much LF comp have I built into these? 5 dB @ 500 Hz, looks like:
Compare to stock Advents:
I'll do a direct comparison with a foam-damped ULA and bullnose NLA once the cabinets get here; I've only got the NLA woofers right now. My chamfered OLAs are presently fiberglass-damped.... :yes:
Impedance:
Minimum impedance is 6.2 Ohms @ 93.5 Hz. As with the smilar ZLH-17, tube enthusiasts may desire to add some parallel fixed resistance to lower the peak; 82 Ohms (Org) = Zmin 5.8 Ohms, 40 Ohms (Yel) = Zmin 5.4 Ohms:
Attachments
Last edited:
