Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
It's on two separate sites, actually, and you've got to dig pretty deep; JBL Pro for the product performance Spec Sheet:
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=1080
Note the rising HF response there. :yes:
And JBL ProService for the technical detail in the Technical Manual:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE Series Compact Models/AC1895-WH.pdf
Fourth order with tank filter HF comp using a 2408H-1 driver, a VHF compression driver derivative of BMS 4540.
There's also a two-woofer version, plus two more using the 120° x 60° variant of the waveguide.
There are two variants, standard and high efficiency, and both are shown there:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83308&d=1205870935
http://audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=90113&d=1210028233
You are correct. I reversed the values in the legend, apparently; blue is the standard. It was a busy day, filter-test-wise....
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
Spec'ed at +/- 3 dB from 63 Hz to 19 KHz, and -10 dB from52 Hz to 20 KHz. And yes, it does have rising response in the hipass band. It gains roughly 4 dB between 2 KHz and 9 KHz, then drops about 5 dB between 9 KHz and 15 KHz. There is then a 2 dB increase, although narrow, at about 15 - 17 KHz, then it plunges to -10 dB at 20 KHz.
Looking at the FR graph, it looks very similar to what we see if we make C3 too big.
With all the parts used by JBL to basically do what they have done with the AC19/95, and still have pretty much the same results we have with EconoWave seems extraordinary. If there was a simple fix, it seems like they would have used it. I am not familiar with the 2408, but if it is derived from the BMS 4540, it must be a decent driver. Would the puckered lips have some effect on the upper end?
hhibrownsbac
Super Member
Finally!!!! And it was worth the wait for sure. Well they are done! And I can honestly say they sound pretty good. It would be impossible to buy anything that performs this good for the investment thats for sure. Good Bass with sharp clear highs and mids. They have just replaced my Pioneers in my office and I cant see me ever using the pioneers again in here(maybe its time to econowave them also hehehehe). Its not even a fair comparison if you ask me as the econowaves sound allot better. I included a few pics of the various stages I went thru from taking the original rectilinear 5 cabinets plugging the holes, restaining and tung oiling, refoaming the eminence woofers, and building new grills to facilitate the waveguides. I went with a sealed cabinet(stuffed them big time) to start with since thats how they were originally and at that time the bass would just pound out of them and still does for that matter, I still might go with a ported design later but they sound so good Im gonna leave them for awhile as they are till the surrounds break in a little to see what happens. I cant really hear a difference with or without the stands unless Im standing right in front of them so Im gonna leave them on the stands for appearance sakes. This was definitely a fun project with results I couldnt have imagined. Anyways thanks to everyone whos posted in this thread for all of your informative posts because with out all of you guys this would have been impossible for me to accomplish.
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Not necessarily; they have their particular approach to HF comp, which is different from what we're using, and their objective for Pro Sound may be different.
You and I have an apparent discrepancy in our measurements. Here's the 8" square waveguide mounted in the original large Advent with the 10/60/0.33 uF filter:
Sucker's +/- 1.5 dB on the Behringer. :thmbsp:
Confirm three things for me, please:
1) That you don't have any EQ running in the Behringer i.e., both GEQ and PEQ bypassed, preferrably,
2) That you're showing 10 dB/major division resolution, i.e., 30 dB FS, and,
3) Your RTA display is in "Average" mode.
I'll measure the waveguide standing alone, now, not mounted in a cabinet....
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Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Superb! what "eminence woofers" are those?
And I'll tell yu if your getting really good bass in a sealed cabinet, LEAVE IT ALONE!
That is not easy to do and when it happens it's some of the finest bass there is IMHO. :thmbsp:
Congrats! My stands are simular to yours, but much more crude.
hhibrownsbac
Super Member
They were replacement woofers (I think possibly)that were installed in the cabinets back in the early 90s the first time they rotted out. The place I took them to were friends of the family and Im not really sure if they refoamed the originals or replaced them. Its weird though because according to the numbers on the back they were made in 1974, 48th week but i bought the speakers in college back in 77 or so . So I think they might have just refoamed them. In any event they sound pretty damn good as they sit. The stands came with the speakers when I bought them, I just touched them up with a can of paint. Im enjoying these thats for sure. They arent quite as efficient as a few of my other ones but boy do they sound good.
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
Confirm three things for me, please:
1) That you don't have any EQ running in the Behringer i.e., both GEQ and PEQ bypassed, preferrably,
2) That you're showing 10 dB/major division resolution, i.e., 30 dB FS, and,
3) Your RTA display is in "Average" mode.
I'll measure the waveguide standing alone, now, not mounted in a cabinet....
When I take photos it is always in "average". And it is difficult to tell with the leading edges cut off, but indeed it is 10 dB per major division. As far as the EQ, I am unsure. I have never used EQ with the DEQ 2496, and don't know how to tell if it is in or out. I will read the manual again tonight, and let you know tomorrow. I hope there is some simple mistake, but I am unsure at this point.
If you have it running, and have a hi SPL xover laying around, hook it up and see what happens. It would be neat if I have screwed up, for sure. I like your measurements much better than mine.
It's our pleasure to see your beautiful E'Waves completed. :yes:
That's one helluva nice job you did restoring your cabs; 32 years and playing better'n ever, apparently:
"Where'd ya get the new speakers, dood?"
"Oh, I jus' built 'em m'self...."
[Priceless! :thmbsp: ]
Russellc
Addicted Member
Very nice job indeed. I know they sound as good as they look. I really like the stands as well, they are a nice touch.
Russellc
hhibrownsbac
Super Member
Im a carpenter, so that was pretty easy. And with the help of your XO boards the rest was a piece of cake also. Actually this was so simple its hard to believe , I cant see why more arent doing it. I know I just picked up some JBL 126a from gordonW for another project and I think thats gonna have to wait and Im gonna use them in another econowave. Thanks for the compliments everyone.
Great job on the recs. I agree that if you have good bass in a sealed box, don't mess with it. Do you have any data (T/S) on the woofs?
Last year, my wife and I were planning on buying this schooner in Hilton Head and running it as a charter service. It fell through. Cheers.
http://www.schoonerwelcome.com/
Last year, my wife and I were planning on buying this schooner in Hilton Head and running it as a charter service. It fell through. Cheers.
http://www.schoonerwelcome.com/
hhibrownsbac
Super Member
No I cant find anything on these woofers, that looks like a nice schooner but as you probably already know the charter business is hurting along with everything else. i have a friend whos been charter fishing here for over 30 years and this is his worst year ever, hes struggling., Shelter Cove is one of my hideaways when I need to relax. If you ever make it down again drop me a PM.
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Deq2496
Jack,
Push and hold the "bypass" button. It will glow red, indicating all processors are out of line. Or you can individually bypass processing by pressing the "bypass" button once (don't hold) which gets you into the "bypass menu." You then rotate the big knob to scroll to individual processors and press the big knob in to bypass, or un-bypass them, as needed. The big "X" indicates bypass of course. It will retain those settings.
Hope this helps.
Jack,
Push and hold the "bypass" button. It will glow red, indicating all processors are out of line. Or you can individually bypass processing by pressing the "bypass" button once (don't hold) which gets you into the "bypass menu." You then rotate the big knob to scroll to individual processors and press the big knob in to bypass, or un-bypass them, as needed. The big "X" indicates bypass of course. It will retain those settings.
Hope this helps.
Un-Baffled:
No baffle, D220Ti #10:
And #2:
CLIO RTA:
MLS:
Looks to me like we're getting the same result, Jack:
1) It's different when mounted on a baffle, and,
2) I'm a bit over-comped.
I'll work up the high-efficiency version to try out.... :thmbsp:
No baffle, D220Ti #10:
And #2:
CLIO RTA:
MLS:
Looks to me like we're getting the same result, Jack:
1) It's different when mounted on a baffle, and,
2) I'm a bit over-comped.
I'll work up the high-efficiency version to try out.... :thmbsp:
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Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
More LE14 box contemplating.
Here is the layout I'm considering. (It looks taller then it is)
This comes out to basically 3.5 ft3 after driver displacements and a few braces.
Is just a hair over 4ft tall, the tweeter would be at ear height when sitting in a
chair and leaning back slightly like a casual listening position would be.
I think I will end up moving the ports as the front of the cabs would look dead in
just adding a box I think. I can do 2 3" ports which gets it tuned to roughly 35hz
for both and 25hz for plugging one. (tuning could be altered no problem)
If I leave the original port an don't do any down below it's tuned to roughly 30hz.
I'm figuring on cutting out the bottom of the top box and cutting into the bottom
box but leaving enough so I can glue and bolt the 2 together, not sure if I should
just make the rectangular cutout all the way or if I should make say some squares
for a chamberd effect or not?
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Something I should or shouldn't do?
Whatever I do they will be mirror imaged though.
Maybe a removable board that bolts to the front where that tweeter is for others
to be installed if I wanted to experiment? (Xover will be external but passive still)
Also am wanting the aesthetics to look as best as I can as well so I'm open to any
thoughts/suggestions on that here to.
Here is the layout I'm considering. (It looks taller then it is)
This comes out to basically 3.5 ft3 after driver displacements and a few braces.
Is just a hair over 4ft tall, the tweeter would be at ear height when sitting in a
chair and leaning back slightly like a casual listening position would be.
I think I will end up moving the ports as the front of the cabs would look dead in
just adding a box I think. I can do 2 3" ports which gets it tuned to roughly 35hz
for both and 25hz for plugging one. (tuning could be altered no problem)
If I leave the original port an don't do any down below it's tuned to roughly 30hz.
I'm figuring on cutting out the bottom of the top box and cutting into the bottom
box but leaving enough so I can glue and bolt the 2 together, not sure if I should
just make the rectangular cutout all the way or if I should make say some squares
for a chamberd effect or not?
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Something I should or shouldn't do?
Whatever I do they will be mirror imaged though.
Maybe a removable board that bolts to the front where that tweeter is for others
to be installed if I wanted to experiment? (Xover will be external but passive still)
Also am wanting the aesthetics to look as best as I can as well so I'm open to any
thoughts/suggestions on that here to.
Attachments
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Zilch,
Is the recessed Advent baffle refracting wayward UHF back on axis? Doesn't make sense to me.
Is the recessed Advent baffle refracting wayward UHF back on axis? Doesn't make sense to me.
I believe I nailed the S99 tower aesthetic well:Also am wanting the aesthetics to look as best as I can as well so I'm open to any thoughts/suggestions on that here to.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1874890&#post1874890
It does not need to be so tall nor such large volume as you propose; 3.5 cuft is Citation subwoofer territory.
Hole in bottom now matches that shown in base.
Tune to ~30 - 32 Hz.
Again, if I was smart, I'd figure out how to make a slot port at the junction.... :yes:
Firstly, we're talking 2 dB here.
My theory:
1) The low end is baffle step; the baffle augments.
2) The high end is diffraction from the cab edges and recess.
I worked out this HF comp with the waveguide (a different one, actually,) installed on a recessed baffle in a cabinet. If anything, it's a bit over-comped for the Advent; I like to see a downward sloping RTA curve like the Behringer produces with "Room Corr" AutoEQ. Flat MLS typically generates that.
The larger waveguide behaves differently in detail in the "Piano" cab than it does on a larger baffle or freestanding.... :yes:
Keg, don't you have PRs for that LE14, or was it the LE10 you have PRs for. Those thinks should really do a great job of thumping the chest. Will the two cabs be glued together?
P.S., just pulled the trigger on 4 807 tubes from the Ukraine. They should be her in three weeks.
P.S., just pulled the trigger on 4 807 tubes from the Ukraine. They should be her in three weeks.