My Barzilaywave project

DENNYDOG

Addicted Member
After hearing and reading the praises of the econowaveguide's I have decided to start my own waveguide project. They will be called the Barzilaywave's. I have to thank PaulC for talking me into doing a econowave project.

I am having a tough time getting a grip on what I will need and want to make sure I don't waste any money buying parts that aren't right for the project.

Here are the details:

The bass enclosure will be using the Barzilay cabs I got from Redboy. The internal dim. are aproximately 22"w X 23 3/4"t X 15"d.

2990607015_684ae88c2d.jpg


I mounted the Altec 921-8a's I got but they sound like poo.

I did some modeling with Boxplot and came up with the Dayton Series II woofer. It looks like it will work very well in this cabinet if my calculations are correct.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-130

2922441241_bef19a1648.jpg


Now on to the horns.

I have a pair of 811b's that I can use. I'm not sure if they would be the best for this project. I know Zilch did some tests for jackgiff with the different Selenium D210Ti and D220Ti drivers on the 811b's. I don't know how they compared to the waveguides.

From what I can tell the best results were with the D220Ti on the PT waveguide with the Model 19 crossover. I am not married to the Altec horns and would be up for using the PT waveguides if this is what will sound the best.

I plan on using the standard 8ohm crossover per Zilches drawing.

Is there anything I need to do to "fine tune" this crossover to work with the Dayton driver before I start building anything?

I would like to get one of Jack's new crossover boards that he is making. I think it will make it a lot easier to build.

Does it look like I am going in the right direction here?

This is my first scratchbuild speaker project I have done so please bear with me. :rolleyes:
 
I was using my Valencia 806As and 811Bs, but wound up with the DT210s and the Pyle waveguides, which cost me less in a group buy than what I got selling the 811Bs alone.

The 210s add the highs the 806As lacked and the waveguide seems flatter with better dispersion than the 811Bs, although they do lack the certain gonadotrophic appeal of the big green 811Bs. FWIW, I wound up selling off all the Altec stuff and now use JBL LE14As in home built cabinets. Kegger and I have played a bit with the XO and they sound quite nice now; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised and how good this E wave top end is. I'm going to add one to my JBL L60Ts in fact.

Check out the E-Wave thread later this weekend, I may have some new pics up as finishing the cabs is on the short list this weekend.
 
Thank you for you thoughts about the Altec horns.

I decided on the 811's when I first got them instead of the 511's since that is what the Model 19's used. After hearing these I was not so sure I liked the sound. It is probably due to the fact they aren't the best compression drivers Altec made and am sure the crossover's aren't perfectly setup for this project.

My plan is to list them on Ebay to recupe what I have into them. Looking back I should have bought just the cabinets.

I took the woofers out of my HPM 150's and tried in the cabinet since they bolted right up. That made a huge difference in how everything sounded. I don't have the specs for the woofers so I had them setup with the port that was in Barzilay cabinets. I guess I could have put the same size port as what is in the HPM cabinet. I think the internal volume is close to the same for both boxes. I'm sure that would make them sound a whole lot better than they currently do.

The HPM woofers are just temporary right now until I get the Dayton's ordered. I think they will work very well in these cabinets.

I wish I knew someone close that has done the econowave thing. I would like to hear what they sound like before I finish mine.

Denny
 
I dove in as I wanted more highs from the Altecs and with the group buy, they were less than many other options. I did a lot of tweaking, including adding "super" tweeters, building Model 19 crossovers, swapping compression drivers and increasing cabinet volumes, but wound up finally with the E waves and JBLs after a lot of A/B rolling with the Balance and one configuration on R channel and another on L in mono.

Quite honestly, almost ALL the tweaks bested the stock Valencias, especially in the high end, just a lot of fine tuning to get it nicer.
 
Can someone double check my calculations for the Dayton woofer in this size box?

It looks like I will need a 3" port anywhere from 6 1/4" - 6 5/8" depending on how much volume the speaker takes up.

Will the fill in the box change this length any? If I do put fill in will it end up making the port longer, shorter or will it stay about the same length?

Thanks,
Denny
 
Well I never noticed this before but Parts Express has a project sheet for this woofer.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-130 series II vented.pdf

Box parameters are:

Vb - 4.267 cu. ft
V(total) - 4.504 cu. ft
Fb - 20.66 Hz
Ql - 6.256
F3 - 29.98 Hz
Fill - normal

No. of vents - 1
Vent shape - round
Vent ends - one flush
Dv - 3.5"
Lv - 10.76"

What is the difference between Vb and V(total) and why are the the volumes different? Would Vb the total inside box volume with the subracted volume of the woofer, fill and vent?

What is Dv and Lv for vent lengths and why are they different?

I plan to use Parts Express Precision port 3" flared port kits.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=268-350

Sorry for what may seem like dumb questions.

Denny
 
Watching with interest.

Very curious to hear how the Dayton woofer works out , if that's what u go with.

I'm an Altec (98448B) owner and Econowaver, so this is neat to watch.

I've left my Altecs fairly original, though I swap other drivers on the 811s, back to 902s now.
 
Denny, cool project. I'll be curious how the Dayton woofs work for you as my friend might use them in his EWG project. I used the Barzilay cabs in my project but mine look slightly different from yours. Good luck and have fun!

I saw your project. Very nice!

Didn't you have some other legs you got at Ikea on them? I like the tapered JBL's much better.

I kind of wondered about installing the waveguides in the cabinet as it looks like there is enough room. I'm just worried that they won't sound as good.

If I would go that direction I think I would need to do something like you did. Either install legs or build a riser of some sort to get them off the ground.

I am hoping that the Dayton's I chose for the low end will go high enough. They list the frequency response at 19-1000 Hz but from the sample response graph and CLIO frequency response they look to go pretty flat past 1200 Hz.
 
I saw your project. Very nice!

Didn't you have some other legs you got at Ikea on them? I like the tapered JBL's much better.

I kind of wondered about installing the waveguides in the cabinet as it looks like there is enough room. I'm just worried that they won't sound as good.

If I would go that direction I think I would need to do something like you did. Either install legs or build a riser of some sort to get them off the ground.

I am hoping that the Dayton's I chose for the low end will go high enough. They list the frequency response at 19-1000 Hz but from the sample response graph and CLIO frequency response they look to go pretty flat past 1200 Hz.
The original legs came from Ikea and come in 4, 6, and 8" heights. Look through my thread for pictures of how I installed them. It doesn't look like yours have the fascia at the bottom but you can still make risers....if needed. The JBL legs are hard to find and can be expensive. Be patient and you might find a pair cheap. Keep your eye out for old C-36 cabinets as they might have the legs on them and not everyone knows they are worth a lot more than the cabinets. :D

The waveguides are not beamy like the older Altec horns so it may not be an issue. As long as you can see down the throat of the horn you should be fine.

From my visits at ZilchLab I think you want the woofs and waveguides to be as close as possible to each other. I may re-do the baffles on mine and will place the waveguide within a 1/4" of the woof.
 
Thank you for the suggestion. I would hate to find out later and have to redo everything.

How thick are the cabinets on your cabinets?

After installing the HPM woofers it seemed like the cabinets flexed quite a bit. There isn't any internal bracing in them currently.

The plan is to shear out some 3/16" aluminum and sheet the inside of the boxes. I will sandwhich a layer of sound damping sheet to help control any vibrations. I think it will help quite a bit and will also add some bracing after that is done.

I'm glad scrap steel prices have gone in the crapper and am hoping that new prices will follow. Prices were about $11.50 a square foot so total to do the cabinets would come out around $150. Ooh boy do I have a lot of work ahead of me.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=268-035
 
I have similar bracing issues as you and will address that when I re-do the baffles. I'm also going to try flared ports from PE. My walls are just a hair under 3/4" thick.

You might want to double check the sound damping material. I used R-15 fiberglass insulation in mine and somehow that actually makes the volume larger for deeper bass. Again look at my pics.

I'm sure Zilch will be along shortly for more technical explanations of how to lay yours out. :yes:
 
The material I am using won't be exposed. It will be sandwiched between the cabinet and the aluminum to control any vibrations that might result between the layers.

I'm still not sure yet what will happen with any fill in the cabinets like you suggest. Reading through your thread has been a great help.
 
Got it. You might just use foam weather stripping from Home Depot and save yourself a bunch of money. You'll need several packages for sealing the waveguides, woofs, terminal plate, baffles and the rear panels anyway. The only air you want leaking from the cabinet is from the ports. You may also want to check on using two smaller ports vs. one larger port. If nothing else it might balance the look of the baffle. (al la JBL 4430)

One more thought on the braces, I'm thinking of using battens on the top, bottom, and both sides and use them to connect braces. The battens will be wood and glued to the inside with the braces screwed to the battens.
 
Thank you for you thoughts about the Altec horns.

I decided on the 811's when I first got them instead of the 511's since that is what the Model 19's used. After hearing these I was not so sure I liked the sound. It is probably due to the fact they aren't the best compression drivers Altec made and am sure the crossover's aren't perfectly setup for this project.

My plan is to list them on Ebay to recupe what I have into them. Looking back I should have bought just the cabinets.

I took the woofers out of my HPM 150's and tried in the cabinet since they bolted right up. That made a huge difference in how everything sounded. I don't have the specs for the woofers so I had them setup with the port that was in Barzilay cabinets. I guess I could have put the same size port as what is in the HPM cabinet. I think the internal volume is close to the same for both boxes. I'm sure that would make them sound a whole lot better than they currently do.

The HPM woofers are just temporary right now until I get the Dayton's ordered. I think they will work very well in these cabinets.

I wish I knew someone close that has done the econowave thing. I would like to hear what they sound like before I finish mine.

Denny

Denny, nice to have seen you at Jays in October. As the Econowave tops sound, you WILL NOT be dissapointed. It is way worth getting right. Post lots of picks, and if you go with the straight econowave top, post on the econowave thread. Its about the "top" anyway, regardless of what you have for bass. You are going to be silly surprised at how just plain stupid good this deal sounds, really.

Russellc
 
Oh, by the way, as an aside, the little wave guide out plays both 811B as well as 511B (I have a pair of both) in every way, and by no small margin.

russellc
 
Denny, I missed this thread earlier! I'm looking forward to seeing how this project progresses, and hopefully hearing the end result someday!

You'll have to drag them up for the next MN shindig.
 
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