QuadBob Restoration for QRX-7001

This weekend I had the pleasure to visit QuadBob in San Diego to listen what quad really sounds like. He had a European version of QRX-9001 and it was a beautiful thing. He had hooked up to four Klipsch speakers and played some quad and even plain FM radio. It was quite amazing! The sound imaging was very dynamic and spacious. It almost felt like a live concert and it's only 60w/channel.

Although my QRX-7001 runs ok it needs a tune-up. He calls it restoration where does does ALOT of things to it. I am pasting his email:

For a complete restoration here's what I do:

1) Replace EVERY electrolytic capacitor (caps) in the receiver (there's about 200 of them!). I do this because electrolytic caps are only rated for 2000 hrs of use, and a maximum "storage" life of 15yrs. (see the technical specs. at www.nichicon.com ) With our QRX receivers approaching 30yrs old now.........this is the single most important cause of failure and poor performance/sound. Replacing them basically "restores" the performance to original specs, and of course the improved sound is tremendous.......you really get to hear what it was "supposed" to sound like!

2) On the Vario-matrix decoder pcbs, I remove the "blend" resistors which normally limit the amount of separation. Without them, the decoder chips operate to their maximum ability and offer separation equal to or better than the rare Fosgate quad decoders......or the more recent Dolby ProLogic II. Additionally, I upgrade the caps in the signal path to high grade Polypropelenes, which offer cleaner and more dynamic performance over the electrolytics.

3) Every switch and pot is carefully cleaned and performance verified. All lamps are verified and/or replaced as necessary.

4) I separate the preamp and mainamp sections of the receiver, and add 8 more RCA jacks to the rear panel. This is a feature that was common in virtually all of Sansui's stereo receivers, but they dropped it in the QRX models. By separating the amp sections and adding the jacks, you can have the choice to either use the internal amp, or add higher output amps with total control still residing in the 7001........volume, balance, decoder, etc.

5) The receiver then receives a complete calibration and I "debug" it
repairing any cold solder joints that have developed, replacing any other bad components (transistors, diodes, caps, etc.) and finally perform a "burn-in" for a minimum of one week, verifying that all functions are operational and the receiver looks and performs to the maximum of its capability.
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All this would cost $800 and it takes him 2-3 months. I know for that for the work he does it's not alot of money. I mean look at all the work he does. Also, he has a regular job. At this time, I don't have that much money to have it restored but something that I am considering for my nonworking 8080db. He also restores non-quad equipments. My 8080DB can be completely restored for $400, so if you guys have something that want to be restored, give him a call or email. quadbob@prodigy.net.

WSJoe

Thanks Woon! You could have told me about this site!

Thanks for the recommendation Woon! I always enjoy visitors that are into Sansui! Just wish you had mentioned this forum to me!
So, if any of you are within visiting range of San Diego or will be in the area.....get in touch and I'll be happy to let you audition my Quad System from Hell! My only warning would be that you should be ready to go back home and add a couple more speakers to your system!
With DVD-Audio and Multi-channel SACD.........the future is quadraphonics again! And to think my QRX-999 only had to wait 25 years for the rest of the audio world to get it right!

Originally posted by wsjoe
For a complete restoration here's what I do:

1) Replace EVERY electrolytic capacitor (caps) in the receiver (there's about 200 of them!).

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200! I've done several large receivers, and I'd estimate the one that had the most used probably 60 - 70 or so. 200 is insane, I want a recount. Additionally, power supply caps are rarely done because they are tough to match in size, and really expensive (would usually add $100 - $175 on most receivers), but all the rest are fair game.

I do this because electrolytic caps are only rated for 2000 hrs of use, and a maximum "storage" life of 15yrs. (see the technical specs. at www.nichicon.com )

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The 2000 hours use and the storage are generally rated at maximum temperature. They would probably last much longer. Replacing is perfectly justified, however, if simply for the fact that newer electrolytics are just much better.

With our QRX receivers approaching 30yrs old now.........this is the single most important cause of failure and poor performance/sound.

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Agreed...but hardly limited to Sansui products.

Replacing them basically "restores" the performance to original specs, and of course the improved sound is tremendous.......you really get to hear what it was "supposed" to sound like!

2) On the Vario-matrix decoder pcbs, I remove the "blend" resistors which normally limit the amount of separation. Without them, the decoder chips operate to their maximum ability and offer separation equal to or better than the rare Fosgate quad decoders......or the more recent Dolby ProLogic II.

Click to expand...

Separation isn't the only improvement with DPL-II, but I'd probably do it too. However, consider that we all have 'ooo-ed' and 'ahhh'd' over vinyl for decades, and separation there is probably 25db tops.

Additionally, I upgrade the caps in the signal path to high grade Polypropelenes, which offer cleaner and more dynamic performance over the electrolytics.

Click to expand...

Any film cap kicks the snot out of any electrolytic, but I'm curious as to how you can possibly accomplish this. For instance, coupling caps can easily be as large as 47µf. No chance of a polypro here, since they are limited to about 2.2µf or so, and even then they are 20X bigger than the electrolytic they replace. There may be one or two places where you might be able to replace a 1µf electrolytic with a polypro, but the usual option is a high-quality electrolytic such as a Panasonic FC with a .18µf film bypass...or buy a Black Gate.

3) Every switch and pot is carefully cleaned and performance verified. All lamps are verified and/or replaced as necessary.

4) I separate the preamp and mainamp sections of the receiver, and add 8 more RCA jacks to the rear panel. This is a feature that was common in virtually all of Sansui's stereo receivers, but they dropped it in the QRX models. By separating the amp sections and adding the jacks, you can have the choice to either use the internal amp, or add higher output amps with total control still residing in the 7001........volume, balance, decoder, etc.

5) The receiver then receives a complete calibration and I "debug" it repairing any cold solder joints that have developed, replacing any other bad components (transistors, diodes, caps, etc.) and finally perform a "burn-in" for a minimum of one week, verifying that all functions are operational and the receiver looks and performs to the maximum of its capability.
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All this would cost $800 and it takes him 2-3 months. I know for that for the work he does it's not alot of money. I mean look at all the work he does. Also, he has a regular job. At this time, I don't have that much money to have it restored but something that I am considering for my nonworking 8080db. He also restores non-quad equipments. My 8080DB can be completely restored for $400, so if you guys have something that want to be restored, give him a call or email. quadbob@prodigy.net.

WSJoe

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I've been doing very similar work for a shitload less. All I gotta say is I have to re-evaluate my pricing. (Don't take that wrong Bob, but not many people I deal with are willing to sink that kind of cash into a 25yr/old amp).

Well Hello EchoWars! From your post I'll assume that your a skeptic when it comes to these restorations. That's great.........ME too!!
I should probably tell you first off what my basis is for my position. My degee is in Biomedical Engineering.......thats basically a EE with heavy Pre-med. I've been repairing and maintaining Medical Life Support and Diagnostic equipment for a little over 25 years now. So, dealing with complex electronics is my career. The repairs and restorations I do on audio equipment is my relaxation!
I don't buy into audio "hype" very easily, I deal in electronic reality and proven facts........not conjecture or hyperbole!! So, you won't find any plutonium based, oxygen free, only constructed in a clean room while orbiting the Earth interconnect cables in my system! I approach any logical discourse on just about anything by first asking "What is your point of reference?" This simply because it was drilled into my brain so deeply while in school! Without a common point of reference, it can be difficult if not impossible to reach the same conclusions. So, with that in mind lets see what I can do with your post to establish a common point of reference!

200! I've done several large receivers, and I'd estimate the one that had the most used probably 60 - 70 or so. 200 is insane, I want a recount.

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Exactly which "large receiver" are you speaking of? In my post I was referring the Sansui QRX-7001......which has exactly 207 electrolytic capacitors in it. Just for reference the QRX-9001 has 264!! You are more than welcome to verify this yourself.......all you have to do is get a QRX-7001, put it on a bench, tear it apart, and start counting.......1, 2, 3, 4,...........when you get to 207 you have found them all.

Additionally, power supply caps are rarely done because they are tough to match in size, and really expensive (would usually add $100 - $175 on most receivers), but all the rest are fair game.

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And your point here is?????? Yes, they are often hard to mount into the original clamps, etc. I have to make adapters to properly hold them in place. Expensive? Yes.....quite often. But, is your point that they don't need to be replaced? They don't age like other electrolytics? They don't affect performance or reliability?
If so, then I would strongly disagree! The "power supply caps" are responsible for maintaining both steady and to the greatest extent possible ripple free voltage and current. Their performance degrades over time just like any other electrolytic cap. And, when they do degrade they affect the performance of the entire unit and its circuits and components. I consider the power supply to be the "heart" of these receivers. Recently I've noted more and more of them with a specific problem that I attribute directly to weak power supply caps. As the caps age their ability to hold DC voltage decreases.......and therefore the current must increase to compensate when under load. I've found that in the first stage of the amplifier sections Sansui used a 180ohm resistor in the circuit. I've noted in many units that the value of this resistor is changing......I've found them at 1.5 to
2.2K ohms!!! The amount of change seems to be random based upon the resistor heating and cooling from the over current condition. But, the result is that the amplifier certainly isn't working "properly" and in the worst case it causes a DC imbalance in the amplifier and trips the protection circuit (Just for all of you with 8080 or 9090 receivers which are stuck in protect!)
So, my contention is that the only way to properly insure original performance and reliability is to replace EVERY electrolytic cap.

The 2000 hours use and the storage are generally rated at maximum temperature. They would probably last much longer. Replacing is perfectly justified, however, if simply for the fact that newer electrolytics are just much better.

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On this matter I would defer to the experts at Nichicon. See WWW.Nichicon.com under their heading; Application Guidelines for Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors.
The fact is that Nichicon rates their standard application caps at 2000hrs at a MAXIMUM of 85deg. C Their standard is that for every 10deg C increase in ambient temperature above 40deg. C the life estimation decreases by 50%! And, the maximum "shelf life" shown on their chart at 45deg C is in fact 15 years.
Can they continue to function beyond 15 years? Yes, no argument from me......the proof is all around us...especially those of us into "classic" audio equipment! However, their performance is certainly not what it was originally, and eventually they can and do fail completely.....you can replace them one at a time, along with the associated cost and labor. Or my approach is to replace them completely NOW. Before they cause other damage, and to "reset" that biological clock to New!
So, I think the key here is that with our receivers approaching 25 years old.....is this really a point that needs debating?

Agreed...but hardly limited to Sansui products.

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On this point, we agree completely. The life expectency of electrolytic capacitors affects all modern electronics using them! Even our Satellites in space don't last forever! My life support equipment in the hospital all carries a 5-7 year projected life from the manufacturers just to avoid product liability!! So, its a simple choice......buy "new" equipment or maintain the 25 yr old equipment we've chosen.

Separation isn't the only improvement with DPL-II, but I'd probably do it too. However, consider that we all have 'ooo-ed' and 'ahhh'd' over vinyl for decades, and separation there is probably 25db tops.

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What is your point of reference here? The QRX-7001 and 9001 both have phono inputs rated at "better than 50db". But, I would agree that it is dependent on the turntable and cartridge combination in question. My 25 year old JVC 4MD 20 cartridge is rated at 30db at 1khz, and greater than 20db up to 30khz. Of course different cartridges and TTs will vary. But, I certainly have found that I DON'T want my separation limited by the quadraphonic decoder/synthesizer!!
My own vinyl collection exceeds 5,000 lps.....and yes I listen to vinyl regularly. I think the credit really belongs to the Sansui design engineers who came up with Vario-Matrix over 25 years ago! Dolby Prologic II certainly comes close......but most of us still prefer VM for music! Besides my desire to listen to QS encoded vinyl at the maximum separation I can obtain, the increased performance really shows when listening to stereo CDs, tape or other sources which all have a better than 50db inherent separation!

Any film cap kicks the snot out of any electrolytic, but I'm curious as to how you can possibly accomplish this. For instance, coupling caps can easily be as large as 47µf. No chance of a polypro here, since they are limited to about 2.2µf or so, and even then they are 20X bigger than the electrolytic they replace. There may be one or two places where you might be able to replace a 1µf electrolytic with a polypro, but the usual option is a high-quality electrolytic such as a Panasonic FC with a .18µf film bypass...or buy a Black Gate.

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On your first point I absolutely agree! The largest value coupling cap on the decoder pcbs in the equipment I've restored is 10uf. And, there certainly could be designs using larger ones. The QRX-7001/8001/9001 uses 3.3uf and 1uf. Yes they are large, and it is tricky to mount them. But, that is exactly what I do. I've experimented and considered the "audiophile" electrolytics. But based upon price vs. performance......I've simply opted to tackle the mounting problem.......just so I don't have to sacrifice sound quality, for a "higher" grade electrolytic that doesn't have much if any published specifications better than normal grades......other than lettering, temperature rating, or ????
One of the factors that influenced my decision was working on the "high-end" quadraphonic decoders......including Sansui's QSD-1000......which utilizes strictly poly's in the signal path. My thought is that if that is what THEY thought, then for me to improve the lesser models, I would follow the same logic. (My point of reference by the way )

I've been doing very similar work for a shitload less. All I gotta say is I have to re-evaluate my pricing. (Don't take that wrong Bob, but not many people I deal with are willing to sink that kind of cash into a 25yr/old amp).

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Have you? I've developed complete electrolytic cap lists for over 15 different quadraphonic decoders and receivers. Spent hours studying the schematics to find areas for modification and possible improvement, including identifying all the signal path caps. On a QRX-7001 restoration I spend about 50 hours of "bench time", and about 80 hours on a QRX-9001. Not including burn-in/listening hours after its completed. And, I'm about as efficient as I can be.....as I already have the caps identified, have taken them completely apart and put them back together many times.........so I think it would be challenging for someone without that experience to do the same thing in less time! The experience I've had both for myself and other quad friends that have been down the same path is that most "audio repair shops" approach the problem in one of 3 ways; A) They refuse to tackle it (at least thats honest). B) They tackle the problem.....get in over their heads and or budget, and then take short cuts to get out of it Or, C) Do only the minimal repair necessary to restore the lost function without regard to the long term use and/or performance of the receiver.
My own QRX-999 receiver runs 3-4 hours per day, every day....and has done so for over six years now. Reliably and faithfully.....with performance that is letting me enjoy even DVD-Audio and SACD which I've recently added to my system. And, the sound quality is fantastic to me......and to all the others that have heard it (included WSJOE who started this thread).
While I would certainly agree that investing this much money into a 25 year old audio component certainly isn't based upon the items "value" as determined by Ebay or Blue Book. It is based upon our (the owner's) desire to enjoy our equipment to the fullest! For myself, yes I could go out and buy the latest and greatest $3-4K Surround sound receiver......but what do I then do with my large collection of quadraphonic records and tapes that I WANT TO LISTEN TO?
The last piece of my own equipment that went to an audio shop was in 1984. I took a Technics Q8 deck to a reputable repair shop to have it aligned, adjusted and the belt replaced. I didn't care how much it cost......I just wanted it to work! After over 6 weeks of waiting, they finally gave it back, unrepaired.....and with the recommendation that I "buy a cassette deck"! It was then that I made the decision to learn how to maintain my own equipment.....which I still do to this day. It doesn't much matter to me whether I restore anything for anyone else. I only offer to do it to help others overcome the same situation. To be able to listen to what we want, when we want, with the best possible performance that can be obtained from our equipment!
I'll close this lengthy note.....with a couple of posts from another quadraphile who bought a QRX-999 brand new in 1977.....so I defer to his opinion of the performance of my restorations......he's listened to his receiver for many more years than I have:

JonUrban
aka oblio98

Posts: 582
(3/3/03 8:00:02 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

Re: Marc's 6001

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As some of you may know, QuadBob did my QRX-999 (QRX-9001) last year, and I must HIGHLY reccomend to anyone with a QRX to seriously consider having Bob do it. It is not cheap, but he treats the thing like it is his own, and the quality of work performed is unparalleled! The results are amazing!

If you want a QRX that is better than having a new one in 1977, ship one to QB!

No brag, just fact............

:-jon


JonUrban
aka oblio98

Posts: 651
(3/27/03 5:10:55 am)
Reply
ezSupporter

Re: QRX-9001, how does it work?
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Whatever QuadBob charges and however long it takes, it is worth it. If you are going to do it, do it right.

:-jon

OK, now that you're done patting yourself on the back, perhaps I may post and ask why you were so defensive? Maybe my fault for not clearly stating my own position as one who is in about 90% or better agreement with you, ...and perhaps my quoting style didn't help either, so I will forgo that this time...relax Bob.

My comment about the number of caps was not one of disbelief, but one of astonishment. I'm no stranger to the inside of a receiver, but 200 electrolytics is...well...astonishing...

Capacitors suck. I have yet to hear a cap that sounds as good as a piece of straight wire. However, sometimes coupling a stage requires one whether we like it or not. If Sansui manages to do it, and keep impedences to a level where small caps may be used, then indeed I would be tempted to see if I couldn't squeeze a film cap in there somewhere. But as I said, the vast majority of the amps/receivers I have opened up have coupling cap values as high as 47µf, although 10µf or so is more typical. In a situation like this, it's either a decent electrolytic with a small film bypass, or a Black Gate. I'm no huge fan of BG caps, mainly because they reek too much of 'snake-oil' to me, and because the prices are 25X what they should be. But it is difficult to argue with the end result, and snake-oil or no, they do a fine job in signal path appications. Just don't get me started on $500 interconnects or $1000 power cords. :bash:

Where did I say that power supply caps don't age? Sure they do. If you have the money to spend, or your customers, go for it. If you have some tricks or suggestions on how to go about fabbing brackets/holddowns for replacement caps that are substantially different in size, by all means, help a brotha out and post some solutions. Additionally, any sources you may know of for reasonable prices for big filter caps would be nice to know.

On a related vein, you obviously have not read any of my own posts, or you would know that I place no value on what a piece of gear will sell for on eBay. The goal here is to find a unit that does what you need it to do (hopefully in a sonically pleasing way), and make it sound as good as or better than it did when new. My philosophy in a nutshell, and sounds at least like part of yours. My position on this is in a minority here at AK however, as most are fixated on what it will sell for should they decide to do so.

Regarding quals, I won't play that game, except to say that I built my first amp in '79. A Class 'D', back when nobody knew anything about them. ....and that's as far as I'm unzipping my fly. That said, I have never felt that I have 'all the solutions', and seeing the general lack of in-depth technical knowledge on the AK board, I would look forward to your posting on a regular basis, as well as having someone who has been around as much or more than myself to ask a question or two of.

Nice to have ya around Bob. Don't be a stranger.

Hey EchoWar.........if you thought my previous post was "patting myself on the back"......you haven't seen anything yet! And, I neither feel or see where you think I was being defensive. To me, you simply presented a challenge both to my previously published statements and to my reasoning for them. My intention was solely to answer the challenge.
Hopefully, those that are less experienced can benefit both by our discussion and opinions as presented. THAT was my intention. I think if you analyze my response carefully....you'll realize that I tried to agree with you wherever I could, and that if I didn't.......I gave you the specific information you might need to understand why I didn't agree.
I wanted to be sure that the casual reader of these posts wasn't confused. When you stated that "200 is insane, I want a recount"......I think most of us would assume that it was "one of disbelief" and not one of "astonishment". I would think a comment along the lines of "Wow" would be more appropriate!
: I knew immediately that your point of reference was more likely a "stereo" receiver. But, the casual reader probably wouldn't draw that same distinction. The QRX series being quadraphonic receivers could easily approach "double" the norm of the average stereo receiver......as it has 4 channels of pre-amp, amp, tone controls, and their special circuitry for quadraphonic decoding/synthesizing and the demodulator along with all the other circuits common to a stereo model. The QRX-9001 has 16 separate pcbs in it! (Ok......now you can saw "Wow" again! )
As to the type of caps I use in upgrading.....I'm open to ANY better way to get the performance. I spent 2 weeks trying to deal with Nichicon to access their Fine Gold and Muse series of high grade electrolytics. The individual pricing through my supplier was competetive......cheaper than the polys I use. But, the killer was they wanted a minimum order of 1600 caps of each value and a lead time of 8-12 weeks. After taking a look at both my usage rate and the needs of the equipment I was restoring I found the maximum number of a single value would be 33 of the 50V 1uf caps in the QRX-9001. Well, that's just nuts!! No way I can justify the investment. The alternative is either to go with the BG's......and I wholeheartedly agree with your description of them being 25X what the should be! So, I use the polys because that is what Sansui did......I just expanded their application as I'm sure the only reason Sansui didn't put them in these locations to begin with was to hold down the total cost of the receiver.
And, you're absolutely correct in that I haven't read many of your posts.....I'm pretty new here (a total newbie so to speak). I certainly look forward to reviewing your comments as time permits me. The only reason I'm here now is that BeatleFred made me aware of this great forum and invited me here. You can ask him why.......but I think its because my reputation and veracity amongst the quadraphonic community (Many of which are classic Sansui owners) is fairly well known already on the internet. In the past I was most definitely a "lurker". I didn't advertise my services or look for customers. Mainly because I just retired last year after 27 years in the Navy. I did my restorations as a hobby (and still do as I work Field Service on Diagnostic Xray machines now), but the demands of Navy life took me all over the world, and left precious little time for my love of quadraphonics (other than hunting for quad lps in Peru, Thailand, India, Japan, etc! )
I've come out of the closet now (so to speak), simply because I do have more time available for it. And, being as my wife will never read this........its the greatest "con" in the world! She used to complain constantly about the time and $$ I spent on my quadraphonic collecting passion. Now, through my restorations I can almost support my addiction, and my "bench" just happens to be in my quad listening room......so I can solder away on the current restoration as I listen to my system! Toss her a few bucks to go shopping with and I'm one happy Quad guy!!
As to quals.......no game intended, I certainly wasn't trying to challenge you on that point. I'm sure there are many of you with more experience and credentials in the audio realm than me. I simply wanted you to know that I could both understand your points.....and make reasonable commentary on the subject. I was given the moniker of "Quad" Bob many years ago now....because in that area I am probably one of the most experienced and knowledgeable people on the 'net. If you want to know whether something was released in quad.....or in what format......I'm your man! But, don't think for a minute I'm trying to challenge the "audio repair" business......my specialty is in a dead format, built by dead manufacturers. I'm just trying to keep my system running.....and if I can help others of a like mind to enjoy and keep theirs running too............then we all win don't we?
So, I look forward to lively discussion with you and the others here......if I can help a little, I'd be happy to. And, I'm always looking for better ways to make my system "sing"........because for me its the music..........

as long as its four channels or more!!

Well I have to tell you that I find what both of you fellas do amazing! I have seen the inside of vintage gear and how anyone makes sense of all the stuff in there is beyond me. Kinda like advanced algebra

Bob I agree with ya on the four speakers thing, though I don't think I am doing a true quad I have always preferred the sound of four speakers (one in each corner of the room) to the sound of two. Of course I am also a "more is better" kind of guy

Bob, Beatlefred suggested that you may have some ideas about my setup if you get a chance please read: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6230

I seem to have everything worked out except for one thing, when playing music, Denon is off Lux pre is on, source is my PC I am now hearing a "hum" in my speakers when there is no music playing. You can't hear it when music is playing but I find it irritating none the less. If I unplug the IC's at the PC the hum stops. Actually if the IC's are connected when I use the Denon for HT I have the hum also. My solution for now is to just keep them unplugged when not listening to music. Any ideas where this hum is from? I have used my PC as my source for years now and this has never happened before. Any ideas to get rid of it?

Bob...

I reread my original post, and I can now see how I may have come off as being sceptical/condescending . I want to publicly apologise for that. Goes to show the difficulty in communicating through a medium where body countenence plays no role. Anyone who has spent 27 years in the Navy has my respect...I won't give away my own age, but my dad (who became a dad at a young age) served aboard a CVE in Korea. Few of my generation were keen on the military. If I had to do it all over again, I'd be in the Navy the day after I graduated HS (hindsight is soooo 20-20).

Compared to many of the guys out there designing and building, I'm a simple hack. Having the knowledge to critique a design and look for ways to improve is a far cry from coming up with a design from scratch. I don't have the time or patience, and it's gonna look like @ss anyway, so I buy and restore what I consider to be some of the best gear ever made.... 70's mi-fi (or ultra-hi-fi by todays lackluster sonic standards).

Please don't be a stranger...I need a few people to bump ideas off of, and maybe someone who knows where to find a few parts that I can't seem to find anywhere else.

Thor,

If you had asked me what to try, I'd have replied. But since you didn't, I'll simply wish you good luck in your battle.

(P.S. - Ground Loop. Plug it into Google and do some reading)

From July 1975 High Fidelity mag (which also has review of the model in this particular issue):

Page from Sansui catalog:

Now echo don't be all poopy I was gonna actually be writing a post to ask the whole board how to fix it. But I thought I would ask the new guy a question to help make him feel welcome

Why would I need a ground loop? The music part of my setup is basically the same, except now the connection between my PC and pre amp is like 42' of IC's instead of 12'. Could this be causing the hum?

THOR- I think what EW is telling you is that your problem is being CAUSED BY a ground loop, so its not something you need to GET but something that you might already have and would want to get rid OF.

and to get more Info, he suggested that you search the topic using the Goggle search engine:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=ground+loop

Well I went and bought a ground loop isolator as an easy fix, $15 is worth not having to try to find the problem. Unfortunately the damm thing comes with two male ends and I need one female end so I gotta go back and buy the little connectors that allow you to hook two male RCA's together

Originally posted by THOR
Now echo don't be all poopy I was gonna actually be writing a post to ask the whole board how to fix it. But I thought I would ask the new guy a question to help make him feel welcome

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LOL!! Thanks for a good laugh on a shitty day! Appreciated!

The music part of my setup is basically the same, except now the connection between my PC and pre amp is like 42' of IC's instead of 12'. Could this be causing the hum?

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I'm going to start a thread on this in General Audio. Please join me there...