Sunfire Subwoofer

It appears that my ears prefer the wavelength of a smaller driver. After trying dual then one Velodyne DD18 in my room, I found that they were not able to produce the musical bass I like. Then I moved to the Sunfire Signature 12” and found some improvement but similar negative results. While I feel these subs would support HT spectacularly, in my room for my taste they actually detracted from the musical quality. Namely breaking down the imaging.

One doesn’t pair up Mac 501’s and B&W 800D’s with the purpose of distorting images. So, the big subs had to go.

Disappointment forced me stop and think this thing through for a month or two. After more research and the help from good forum members I decided to give it another go. I talked to the techs at Sunfire as well as a Sumiko master support tech for REL and I decided to try the smaller 10 inch EQ sub from Sunfire. My thinking on this is that 2700 watts will control two 10 inch drivers better than two 12s. I placed the sub in the corner, EQ’d it with their built in software to my room and began some volume, phase and crossover trials.

Here is my opinion on the results.
My room is 19’8” x 24 x 8. The 800D’s handle bass down to 30hz better than anything I’ve ever heard and which is one reason I purchased them. Accurate bass is mandatory. I have the Sunfire crossed at its lowest point of 30hz. Anything higher caused a reduction in the clean performance of the 800D’s. Volume is just a fraction hair below the 0db mark (about half volume). Phase is at 90.

I find the smaller drivers offer enormous punch and articulation at the deepest notes that they are able to produce. While the musicality of the 800D’s are unaffected by the Sunfire when crossed at 30hz (imaging perfectly intact) the sub bass frequencies have finally decided to come out to play with the rest of the band. Most notable is the kick drum. Feeling the impact and hearing the bottom end of the drum kit has caused the drummer to appear as a clearer and better balanced size of the image which not only adds to the live performance realism but has created the illusion of further depth. I must say, this added depth is a benefit I was not really expecting. It is wonderful. The entire image of the drum kit is more apparent and brings the feeling of the musicians being in the room with the drummer in the back like a real stage performance. I am thrilled with this particular result. One of the keys is to keep the sub volume level real. It’s tempting to increase the volume for the WOW effect it offers but to get lasting, non-fatiguing and musical bass one has to understand that volume can make or break the proper integration of a sub and many folks play a sub too loud for music.

While impact bass without the disruption of the imaging has always been my goal for the sub, deeper more complete soundstage turned out to be a fantastic unexpected bonus. I will keep the Sunfire True Subwoofer EQ (11 inch cube) in my system. But I would also like to say that even though I’ve never heard REL gear, the fact that they use 10 inch drivers makes a whole lot of sense to me. I might suppose that the REL Studio III may just be one of the best subs known to man. However, I will be satisfied with the Sunfire as long as I never hear the Studio III. If you invite me over for a listen to it, I will not come. Beer? Yes. REL? No. 9K is a price I’ve decided I don’t want to pay for a sub and it's better I just don't hear it if you know what I mean. As for Velodyne, the same thing might apply to their smaller drivers. Since they also use the same amp in the 10 – 18 inch subs, I might also imagine the 10 inch would be an interesting audition for two channel.

From this point forward I will encourage two channel music people to audition powerful 10 inch quality subs along with the usual big sub recommendations that most dealers suggest before purchasing.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Have you spent any time with the Sunfire True Subwoofer Super Junior? Would that be appropriate for two channel in a small room? (10'X14') Thanks,
-Bill

Jesse, glad to hear you found a "musical" sub! The 30Hz crossover point makes sense given the specs of the 800D. Where did you place the sub in the room?

Bill C said:

Thank you for sharing your experience. Have you spent any time with the Sunfire True Subwoofer Super Junior? Would that be appropriate for two channel in a small room? (10'X14') Thanks,
-Bill

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Yes I have and it is a good sub for the money.

However, I would recommend against the Junior model for musicality. It does not have room EQ and also a much smaller amp. It only goes to 22hz and I would consider it more of a super high end sub for a computer game sound setup. But for music listening the True Sub EQ 11 inch cube (not the 13 inch signature model) reigns supreme for music in the Sunfire line for any room size. If my room was extra large, I'd purchase two of the 11 inch, one left one right, before I'd purchase one of the 13 inch signature. Unless it was HT then I'd go 13 inch Signature all the way.

PHC1 said:

Jesse, glad to hear you found a "musical" sub! The 30Hz crossover point makes sense given the specs of the 800D. Where did you place the sub in the room?

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Since the Sunfire has opposing firing drivers it makes sense to put it catty cornered in the corner. Here's a pic. I have the controls facing out because I like looking at whistles and bells. Turned around would be a cleaner and better WAF but hey, it's my room and I make the rules. She makes the rules in every other room.

By the way PHC1, this review was almost a review on the REL Studio III because of you. Whew! The wife would have had me up by the thumbs. But seriously, thanks for the help along the way.

Jesse, looking good! I can "feel" the bass just looking at the pictures.:yes:

By the way PHC1, this review was almost a review on the REL Studio III because of you. Whew! The wife would have had me up by the thumbs. But seriously, thanks for the help along the way.

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Here's a pic where you can see our Sunfire. The pic is really more of our cat worshipping the heat goddess, but you can see the sub in the upper right hand corner. Right next to the sub is a couch. It's hardly perfect placement but in the family room the WAF has a HIGH priority, so I figured a poorly placed sub was better than no sub.

I glanced at your pic then began reading your post and I thought you were going to say you hated the Sunfire so much you threw it in the furnace. :nono:

Most notable is the kick drum. Feeling the impact and hearing the bottom end of the drum kit has caused the drummer to appear as a clearer and better balanced size of the image which not only adds to the live performance realism but has created the illusion of further depth. I must say, this added depth is a benefit I was not really expecting. It is wonderful. The entire image of the drum kit is more apparent and brings the feeling of the musicians being in the room with the drummer in the back like a real stage performance. I am thrilled with this particular result.

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I know what you mean! I've listened to the REL Studio III with Proac Response III's and the combo was just mind blowing. The Proacs are very good at not only recreating the sense of depth and width of the soundstage but the 3-Dimensionality of the musicians as well. With the REL, the bass was not only deep, tuneful and musical but 3-dimensional as well, you could close your eyes and just "see" the whole drum kit right there! The impact, resonance of the skin of the drum heads were so real, it brought goosebumps! It's good to know that the Sunfire is also capable of recreating the realism of the lower octaves at much more affordable price than the REL. I'll keep that in mind if I decide to purchase a sub in the future. Thanks for sharing your findings!:thmbsp:

Um...so you're not using the Sunfire's crossover? Or are you only using it in one channel? You really should put both channels through it, if at all possible. At least try that configuration. The one thing I enjoyed most about the Sunfire was it's ability to integrate into my setup, but it only did so if I used the crossover. I think that's how it can get continuous phase.

Dusty Chalk said:

Um...so you're not using the Sunfire's crossover? Or are you only using it in one channel? You really should put both channels through it, if at all possible. At least try that configuration. The one thing I enjoyed most about the Sunfire was it's ability to integrate into my setup, but it only did so if I used the crossover. I think that's how it can get continuous phase.

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I run XLR from the MDA straight to the 501's. The sub is connected directly as well with the unbalanced outputs of the MDA.

I may try that someday but I really can't imagine eliminating the balanced capability and benefits of the 501 in order to do it along with adding another crossover network in the signal path between my beloved MDA and the 501's. Another drawback would be the 70hz line level crossover in the Sunfire eliminating much of what the 800D does so well.

To some ears it may be possible that the bass would be better enjoyed using the sub crossover, but I suspect the addition of the Sunfire electronics in the path would deminish the elegant articulation of the MCD/MDA. And we can't have that now can we.

To some ears it may be possible that the bass would be better enjoyed using the sub crossover, but I suspect the addition of the Sunfire electronics in the path would deminish the elegant articulation of the MCD/MDA. And we can't have that now can we.

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A lot depends on the speakers and what's going on down there. The 800D must behave themselves very well down there, sign off cleanly on their bass cutoff capabilities and just need a little augmentation below 30Hz and that's what you did. I would suspect using the sub crossover would degrade the overall sound somewhat. If they sound great from 30-100Hz, why mess with them with a crossover.

jesse111 said:

Another drawback would be the 70hz line level crossover in the Sunfire eliminating much of what the 800D does so well.

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Ah, I had forgotten about that. Yeah, worked fine with my Spendor S3/5's, who started to cut off right around 70 Hz anyway, but kind of misses the point on speakers that go lower.

I suspect the addition of the Sunfire electronics in the path would deminish the elegant articulation of the MCD/MDA. And we can't have that now can we.

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Agreed, we can't have that. I've always wished for a similar unit that was (a) separate (shorter cable runs if the unit is physically between the pre and the power); and (b) higher end (I mean, it was perfectly acceptable for what I was doing, but there is definitely room for improvement).