Question for Dual 505 owners

Thanks again for the replies. I'll keep looking for some of the TT's mentioned here, and see if I can get one at a decent price.

When I bought my 505 new in 1980 or so, I had it fitted at the audio store with the Shure V15 Type IV. They put on the 1/2" adapter plate (the one that comes with its own wiring), and did the alignment.

There's no problems with the bearings on the arm. Everything is still very smooth. I can blow lightly on the arm when it's suspended, and move it across the table. I don't feel anything moving it up or down, either. There's nothing wrong with the table at all.

I ran the turntable last night with no record, and with the volume turned up all the way on my NAD 7240PE. I heard a very, very faint sound, not even a hum. I had to put my ear right up to the speaker to hear it, so I don't think I'd hear it when I was playing an LP. When I switched the amp to another input, the sound went away.

Unless I'm missing something, there's nothing from the table itself that's making noise to degrade the sound, so I'm assuming that a better arm would somehow give better sound, although I don't understand how that works.

Given the other components--the Shure V15, the NAD 7240PE, and Advent 5002 speakers---do you think I'd notice an improvement with a different TT?
 
I’ve had several of these decks MKI, MKII and MKIII’s over a thirty year period.
They are a very good entry level deck, I purchased one for my girlfriend recently and look after it for her, set up wise. I regularly recommend it to people who want to try vinyl on a budget, so I’m not a 505 hater.

But lets not beat about the bush, it is never going to be more than entry level.
The thing is full of levers and bits of pressed steel rattling about inside. The arm has contact with this stuff to operate micro switches etc. (Possible cause for melofelo’s Click).

It is not that well isolated either, tap a fingernail on the top plate while playing a disc and (with a good level of volume) you hear it through the speakers, tap the plinth and you hear it through the speakers, tap the shelf it is sat on, adjacent to the deck and you hear it through the speakers. Put a stethoscope to the top plate while playing and the motor and main bearings sound worse than my stomach after a bad curry. I’ve done this on several, so don’t say I had a faulty one. The lower arm bearing with its weak plastic support leaves a lot to be desired and the fact that the lower and top bearings are connected to different sub assemblies has all kinds of alignment issues.

All of these issues can be addressed, but by the time you have done this, better motor, platter bearing, suspension, damping, you would have very little of the original deck left and with the money you had spent, could have purchased a far superior deck as a used item of flebay. There are some good buys to be had, just looked at completed listings and its amazing what you can get for less than £100, take it up to £150 and there’s even more choice. These come with arms and cartridges, most of these had cartridges fitted that cost more than the whole deck fetched. (All my gear is pre owned and upgraded by me).

If you want to keep going with the 505 be realistic in your expectations and don’t over spend. Removing all the loose metal and Auto start/stop mechanism costs nothing, except for a separate on/off switch you will need to fit. Also as previously said, ditch the transport lock down screws/washers. Adding caulking putty (Mortite brand in USA) or bitumen panels to the underside of the top plate has reasonable results for the outlay and you will have larger flat areas available to easily treat, with the levers gone. You could make a better plinth as long as you don’t go mad on exotic materials but you will have to create spring mounting points accurately and the benefits will be small for the amount of work. Better to just fit some better isolating feet in the form of “Sorbothane” semi spheres. I wouldn’t do more than that and just enjoy the deck. If you aspire to greater things, then you need a better starting point to justify your efforts and expenditure.

:music:
 
Thanks for the reply, Qwin. You've answered my questions in a way that I can understand.

External vibration shouldn't be a problem, as the table is sitting on a marble table, which is on carpeting over a concrete foundation. Only a semi trailer truck or bulldozer passing by causes any vibration.

It would seem that vibration from the motor and other parts can be treated somewhat, but that the arm still isn't what it could be. I don't understand completely how that affects the sound, though.

I'll be keeping my eye out for some of the tables mentioned. I saw a nice CS-5000, but the seller wants $500 for it.

What are some better-than-a-505 tables that sometimes can be found for a couple or few hundred that are good? I know that's a wide-open question, but any suggestions are appreciated. If I happen to come across anything that's recommended for a good price, I'll just grab it.
 
Monkeyleg said:
Thanks for the reply, Qwin. You've answered my questions in a way that I can understand.

External vibration shouldn't be a problem, as the table is sitting on a marble table, which is on carpeting over a concrete foundation. Only a semi trailer truck or bulldozer passing by causes any vibration.

It would seem that vibration from the motor and other parts can be treated somewhat, but that the arm still isn't what it could be. I don't understand completely how that affects the sound, though.

I'll be keeping my eye out for some of the tables mentioned. I saw a nice CS-5000, but the seller wants $500 for it.

What are some better-than-a-505 tables that sometimes can be found for a couple or few hundred that are good? I know that's a wide-open question, but any suggestions are appreciated. If I happen to come across anything that's recommended for a good price, I'll just grab it.
Click to expand...

I have been following this thread and I believe it has come full circle, when you first commented about listening to your equipment rather than the music and then the image of someone listening to their table with a stethoscope....that truly defines listening to one's equipment.

If the 505 is working with no real complaints other than you want "something better" then you have the luxury of time to do research into the vast possibilities of possible tables to put into play.

Qwin knows his stuff and I have noted many of his suggestions including the sorbothane hemispheres as I have been trying to improve the isolation of my PL41 without breaking the bank or going to extremes.

Would not one of the first things to decide on is if you want a fully manual, semi-auto, or fully-automatic table? Many "audiophiles" I think prefer manuals because they don't like all those mechanisms and levers &c. rattling around or not functioning properly.
Also I guess it matters if you are a tinkerer that is willing to dig into a table or whether you want one in a condition that is "plug and play" ready.

Check into local resellers of vintage audio, here in Houston there are a couple of good resellers that have equipment that they have gone through , cleaned up &c. that are basically ready to take home and play.
I bought 2 tables on e bay and both times there were problems with them as the seller overstated in both cases the condition of their goods. Proper packing and shipping is also a concern.Both the tables I bought were damaged in shipping.No more e bay tables for me.
So look on craigslist also, that's where I found my Pioneer PL41. (Estate sales also... many are advertised online,on craigslist &c.)

I am sure you know that if you ask a hundred people what is a "good" table you might get 99 different answers. Good thing about this forum is that 98 of the suggestions are likely to be real good ones.

Have fun looking!
 
There are many choices and as “asterion” said it depends what your preference is, manual, Auto, semi auto. I prefer manual and belt drive, there is less to go wrong (easier to fix) and less to interfere with the main function of transferring the sound from your record to the amp. There is also the question of DIY skills, do you want a project or an off the shelf solution.
You seem to have limited knowledge on arms etc. It can get complex. Matching the cartridge to the arm in terms of compliance/mass etc but get it right and its worth all the effort. A modest deck well set up, will always beat top shelf items that are poorly matched and not set up correctly.
It might be worth reading some of the technical guides to arm geometry and cartridge alignment at the: http://www.theanalogdept.com/
This is where I learnt a lot on the subject. You could also try: http://www.vinylengine.com/ for reviews of Turntables/arms/cartridges to help you make an informed decision – don’t dive in at the first thing that comes up – know what you want.

I just had a look at what’s on offer on eBay your side of the pond eg:

Tannoy/Micro Seiki TM44DD Direct Drive $200 No Bids. (Rare Item).
Thorens TD-325 Belt Drive $250 No Bids
Technics SL-1600 Direct Drive fully Auto $212 Four Bids.
AR EB101 Belt Drive $152.50 Three Bids.
AR “The Turntable” Belt Drive $26.99 Three Bids.
Thorens TD-166 mkII Belt drive $80.99 Three Bids.
Thorens TD-150 MKII Belt Drive $20.50 Two Bids.

From my own perspective there is one of these that just jumps off the page and cries me, me! The AR “The Turntable” This model has a unique place in history, looks in good shape, and has had quite a few of the recognised upgrades for the model. It has no Arm though. These normally go for $700/800 in good nick and complete with arm.
I would watch how it goes. Oh, it sounds good too.

Next is the Thorens TD-150. Technically similar and which would make a good project. I did one! You can see it documented on my website. The stock arm may not look pretty but sounds better than it looks, so may carry you to the point where you can upgrade it.

The Thorens TD-166 MkII is a fair performer and has good upgrade potential, hence the bids.

All these Turntables are mechanically similar, like the pricey and much sought after Linn Sondeck LP12, they are all manual belt drive decks with spring suspended sub chassis. The AR was the original design that the others developed, though it’s not clear whether Thorens got there first.

These are my preferences, your criteria may be different. I only checked a few pages so its only a guide to what’s out there.
Hope this helps.
I have also experienced damaged goods through poor packing by seller.
 
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Great replies and advice!

I'm pretty proficient technically, having rebuilt cars, computers, guns, and all sorts of things with moving or electrical parts.

Good thing about this forum is that 98 of the suggestions are likely to be real good ones.
Click to expand...

That's why I'm asking here instead of on a music forum. ;)

I'm not intending to listen to the music, but I'd like to get the system to the point where I'm satisfied that for my budget, I'm hearing my favorite tunes with the best possible clarity and tone.

I would prefer manual or manual with a lever for lowering the arm. I figure the extra mechanicals for automatic probably raise the probability of noise.

I looked at the AR EB101. Appearance is a factor, since this is all going in my living room. That table looks decent. Don't know if it works properly, and the only way to find out would be to buy it. I don't know that buying something that doesn't work online is the best way to find out if what's wrong can be fixed.

If I'm going to mix and match arms, maybe I should do some research so I know what I'm looking for.

Edited to add: Isn't the Tannoy incompatible with my Shure V15, as the arm is high mass? Also, the Technics is a direct drive, not belt.
 
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"I'm not intending to listen to the music," :scratch2:
Then why do you need a turntable?
I'm Confused.
 
Dual 704 Direct drive, mine is running the Shure V15-iii, I went from a 505-2 to the 704 the change was light and day between the two.

704 on Ebay $195.00 1 bid
 
A typo, Qwin. A typo. ;)

Brooklynwgtn, do you recall what the differences are between the 505 and the 704?

It's tempting to bid on the TT's on Ebay, but I don't know what I'm doing yet. That AR EB01 is getting bid up, although it's an "as is" sale. The Technics is probably going to go out of sight. I can't find much information about the Tannoy/Micro Seiki TM44DD.

I also won't have money for much of anything short term, as I'm going through a divorce, and my wife is starting to play money games.
 
Ml: There are quite a few, as the 704 was the last semi-automatic direct-drive top model version with pre-ULM arm (effective mass roundabout 12 g), which was equipped with a convenient height adjustment on the 721 and 704. A nice model, that imo belongs to the best Dual tables ever.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
I looked at some info on the 704. I wasn't able to find anything about the tonearm, bearings, etc. Is it an improvement over the 505?

I see that the plinth is still hollow plastic, right? Does it and the table have the same resonance problems as the 505? The platter is a bit heavier, if that matters.

What's the old saying about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing? ;)
 
Monkeyleg said:
A typo, Qwin. A typo. ;)

Brooklynwgtn, do you recall what the differences are between the 505 and the 704?

It's tempting to bid on the TT's on Ebay, but I don't know what I'm doing yet. That AR EB01 is getting bid up, although it's an "as is" sale. The Technics is probably going to go out of sight. I can't find much information about the Tannoy/Micro Seiki TM44DD.

I also won't have money for much of anything short term, as I'm going through a divorce, and my wife is starting to play money games.
Click to expand...

The 704 seems to keep better and more consistent speed, no worries with getting the speed adjust belt that the 505 has.
the are on the 704 is a medium mass arm, unlike the 505 (ULM) I was running the Ortofon OM-30 and the ULM dose reduce cartridge choices, personally I think they are both very good arms. The VTA adjustment on the 704 is very handy with set up.
Yes mine has the hollow plastic plinth, however I will make a new solid wood plinth soon.
Sound wise, I prefer the music reproduction from the 704, It is giving better base the it is not sounding so bright, however the cartridge will have allot to play with it.

For me the move to the 704 was huge,and I'm not looking back, May look forward, as I'm sure there are better (budget depending) TTs. :music:
 
I've seen the Dual reference site. Not sure if it helps, though.

Is the Thorens TD170 any relation to the TD166, or are they completely different animals? I read somewhere that the motor and other parts were made by Dual, although I don't know if that's good or bad.

I don't know why my edits don't post, but I checked a bit more on the TD170, and found out that it was made cheaply in the far east after the Thorens name changed hands or went downhill or something.
 
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Ml: There are both an old TD170 and a new TD170 model. The old one is a nice classic Thorens - whereas the new one basically is a modified Dual CS435-1, which I wouldn't recommend at all. The latter isn't made in Asia, though - actually it's made in Germany, but that doesn't really matter in this case, as it doesn't make it a better model...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Thanks, lini. I looked up the TD170 on a couple of sites, and the current Thorens site showed it, so I assumed it was new. On some forums it was mentioned that it was a late model and not very good quality.

The one I was looking at says "vintage", but it looks like the new style on the Thorens site.
 
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Hi all.

Can I re-open this thread as a general purpose 505 thread.

I am trying to help a friend resurrect one of these.

Needs a new drive belt among other things. To get platter off, VinylEngine manual says to 'press and turn right' the centre 'ornament'. This one is not releasing.

How far should it turn and is it OK to spray some lubricant on it to loosen it ?

thanks.

Oh yeah, and how do I tell what sub model it is ? Build date is August 1982. (by memory)

thanks again.

EDIT: Got it. "Turn Anti-clockwise" would explain it better.

Still not sure which one we have. Plastic plinth model.
 
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