Idler Drive Turntables
- Thread starter KA2Z
- Start date
olddude55
Super Member
Expensive turntables used idlers, too. A Dual 1219 in today's dollars would be in Rega Planar 6 territory. The Garrard 301 is an idler.
When changers went out of vogue, there was no need for idlers anymore. Most changers' mechanisms were driven by the platter's rotation and a lot of torque was needed to complete the change cycle.
VPI was making an idler drive deck for a while. Still might.
Back in the '40s and '50s, pretty much all turntables, both cheap and expensive, both single play and record changer, were based on idler drive. There had been some 'direct drive' record players in the '30s, but the methods of the time meant the motor was directly coupled to the platter, which led to lots of rumble, and it probably didn't work well for the then-popular record changers. At some point in the late '50s, belt drive started to appear, though mostly on low end (relatively speaking) single play decks, while record changers continued to be based around idler drive. I have an example of one of said early belt drive turntables, the Rek-O-Kut K33, which used a fabric belt for some reason. I have yet to experience it for myself since it's still in the form of an unbuilt kit, but here are some pictures of what you got for your $39.95 back in 1959 (equivalent to $355 today), while the idler drive B-12H "Rondine Deluxe" they sold at the same time went for $129.95, or $1,155 today:
Grbluen
Super Member
You have to experience an idler drive for yourself to understand why many love them.
It was an eye opening thing when I first compared one to my VPI scout!
The difference was most noticable in the low bass.
I've since added mass to the VPI platter, and it made a noticeable difference.
Not to the extent that the VPI is better, but acceptable!
It was an eye opening thing when I first compared one to my VPI scout!
The difference was most noticable in the low bass.
I've since added mass to the VPI platter, and it made a noticeable difference.
Not to the extent that the VPI is better, but acceptable!
I have 7 turntables, a Commonwealth 12D3 which is a broadcast idler drive, from mid 50's, an Orpheus Silex from same period which is idler and belt, a Lenco gl78 again idler and an SP10mk2 direct drive, a sl1210mk2 again direct drive, a new sl1200G again direct drive and a Denon Direct drive so though I should comment here. First worth mentioning that wow and flutter and rumble of a Lenco is 0.06% wow and flutter and rumble is 60dB. Now a Rega RP3 for example is 0.08% wow and flutter and the rumble is the same as the Lenco, this is terrible performance IMO for a belt drive, but people still buy them and it shows how good an idler can be.
My Commonwealth wow and flutter measures around the 0.05% which is stunningly good, rumble is silent, utterly silent ie like my direct drives and no untoward driver movements between tracks indicating rumble is very very low indeed. My G is probably my best turntable, but the Commonwealth is scary good.
Chris
There are probably thousands of posts on idlers here on AK. A simple search would bring you to any one of them. I'd suggest reading one (or 25).
Then listen to a well-restored idler table before you take anyone on their word on how they sound. Otherwise this is just all just so much troll bait...
(Gotta say, these idler drive threads lately are turning into "The Cutting Edge" -worthy discussions IMHO. And on that note....I'm out.)
Then listen to a well-restored idler table before you take anyone on their word on how they sound. Otherwise this is just all just so much troll bait...
(Gotta say, these idler drive threads lately are turning into "The Cutting Edge" -worthy discussions IMHO. And on that note....I'm out.)
stratokaster
Mental toss flycoon
Idler drive turntables were common during the mono era because rumble was less of a concern and they could easily overcome stylus drag caused by heavy-tracking pickups of the day.
Once stereo became mainstream and full-range speakers became affordable, idler drive turntables died out like dinosaurs.
Once stereo became mainstream and full-range speakers became affordable, idler drive turntables died out like dinosaurs.
A link to my Commonwealth restoration https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=34547
My Orpheus Silex https://vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=59173
Not sure I have a link for the GL78 as it did not need any work.
Chris
My Orpheus Silex https://vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=59173
Not sure I have a link for the GL78 as it did not need any work.
Chris
They died out due to cost of making them and belt was cheaper. Rumble was not the issue as I said earlier look at the rumble on a RP3 which is a very common turntable of today, the Lenco is the same. The Commonwealth for the 50's has no rumble issues at all neither does the Orpheus. Money and profit margins killed idlers nothing else.
Chris
stratokaster
Mental toss flycoon
Anecdotal evidence is just that - anecdotal. You're comparing a top of the line broadcast idler to a not quite even mid-fi belt drive turntable. Mass market idler drive turntables were quite awful. FWIW, broadcast idlers were replaced with heavy-duty direct drives which were even more expensive.
And my Lenco? Not broadcast just what people had at home so not true what you say they were even in all in ones. The Lenco is a perfect comparison for the RP3 and it beats it performance wise too. Then there was Dual's which performed very well too and these were common household turntables at the time. Consumer idlers most anyway were very good.
Chris
specs Dual 1219 which was very consumer in the day, wow and flutter (better than a Rega RP3 AGAIN) 0.06% and rumble -60dB which is the SAME as the Rega, the idler wins again.
Chris
Chris
Orpheus Silex also not a broadcast turntable and it is rather good too..
Chris
Chris
stratokaster
Mental toss flycoon
Another point is that today we know how to optimize the old clunkers, back in the day even an expensive turntable like a Garrard 401 would sit in a thin-wall hollow box plinth that would not do it any favours sonically.
BSR idlers were junk and so where their belt drives, but these were really bottom feeder turntables and there are plenty of those today, belt and idler drive
The likes of BSR were junk, but the belt drive they made later were junk too, but lots of belt and direct drive today that are junk. Lots of good consumer idlers made back in the day that performed very well stock standard, Dual and Lenco are just two.
Chris
No I am quoting numbers from the Lenco owners manual and mine is stock standard and sounds great. My Orpheus is plinthed by me as I bought it without a plinth. My Commonwealth was broadcast so no plinth too, but Dual, Orpheus and Lenco all came in decent enough plinths, no worse than what they compare with today like the RP3.
The likes of BSR were junk, but the belt drive they made later were junk too, but lots of belt and direct drive today that are junk. Lots of good consumer idlers made back in the day that performed very well stock standard, Dual and Lenco are just two.
Chris
