Vintage H/K: upgrades and alternatives?

[Allan Castle]

I'm considering upgrading some of my gear which I guess like most people's is a little variable in quality.

I play only vinyl, with my current rig being:

• Turntable: Rega P1 with stock Rega Carbon cartridge; I know, I know...
• Amplifier: Harman/Kardon hk 450 ... circa 1978; this is my only vintage piece of gear
• Speakers: Bowers & Wilkins 684 S2's
• Subwoofer: REL R218... picked this up b/c the B&Ws were a little light in the bass dept.

As a listener, my currently uncontrolled vinyl sprawl is about 50 percent jazz + jazz-funk and 40 percent rock, with the rest comprised of R&B, reggae and country. Almost nothing after 1990. Production matters a stupidly large amount in my listening experience: I have a hard time listening to otherwise classic albums if they are tinny or suffer from Rick Rubin syndrome, but will collect even marginal releases by CTI/KUDU, Groove Merchant etc for that big bottom end. I am fortunate in that my listening space is in a place where I can crank the music as loud as I wish.

So here's the issue. I was always an H/K guy from my first system which was built around an early 80s PM 645. I love the sound (and look) of H/K but my current 450 feels a little underpowered vis-à-vis the B&W speakers and I would like to take a step up. Not breaking the bank... just a reasonable upgrade to another vintage box for less than $1000, whether that's another more powerful H/K from the same era or a comparable make.

Looking for suggestions... and will also happily take on board any corrections of my implicit assumptions.

Thank you!

 

[Allison3]

Citation 17 Pre and Citation 19 Amp. Done!

or, a recapped 730 receiver

 

[dlucy]

+1 on the recapped hk 730 twin powered receiver.

 

[Allan Castle]

Citation 17 Pre and Citation 19 Amp. Done!

or, a recapped 730 receiver

Thanks - what does recapped mean? is that fairly simple for a repair shop?

 

[Allison3]

Thanks - what does recapped mean? is that fairly simple for a repair shop?

I’m awaiting a 330c that I got super cheap, and am going to recap it myself. It’s not hard.

 

[jheu02]

I’m awaiting a 330c that I got super cheap, and am going to recap it myself. It’s not hard.

Not hard is open to debate. Not everyone is up to the task. Not trying to discourage working on your own gear (I had never done it til I did, but have tinkered and taken things apart as long as I can remember), but it can have its pitfalls if you:
a: don't have at least the basic tools
b. aren't patient and willing to ask questions (and wait for the answers)
c. jump ahead with really no plan on what you're really trying to accomplish

Recapping is NOT a cure-all, nor is it a true restoration. It is good preventative maintenance if you're careful with what you're doing. But it's not going to fix problems with transistors, bias being out of whack, etc

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/wow.915320/

Now, per the OPs original post: the H/K 450 is 30 WPC. I doubt you'll notice any difference power-wise between it and a 40WPC 730. However, the 730 DOES have pre-out/main-in RCA jacks, which gives it the ability to be hooked to a more powerful amp. You mentioned "big bottom end." I haven't listened to the speakers you have, nor the listening room/treatments/speaker placement, but the specs on them state minimum recommended power is 25W and they're rated at 87dB. You probably could use a good 100W or so to get them to open up, but with already using a sub, methinks you might want to look at different speakers. Do you know anyone who has a higher powered receiver, even if you need to use a different source just to see if it's speaker related.

One other thought...I know that the H/K730 phono section (unmodified) has a bad curve...drops off the lows too abruptly. Maybe the 450 has the same phono section and could be modded back to life...

 

[Allan Castle]

Not hard is open to debate. Not everyone is up to the task. Not trying to discourage working on your own gear (I had never done it til I did, but have tinkered and taken things apart as long as I can remember), but it can have its pitfalls if you:
a: don't have at least the basic tools
b. aren't patient and willing to ask questions (and wait for the answers)
c. jump ahead with really no plan on what you're really trying to accomplish

Recapping is NOT a cure-all, nor is it a true restoration. It is good preventative maintenance if you're careful with what you're doing. But it's not going to fix problems with transistors, bias being out of whack, etc

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/wow.915320/

Now, per the OPs original post: the H/K 450 is 30 WPC. I doubt you'll notice any difference power-wise between it and a 40WPC 730. However, the 730 DOES have pre-out/main-in RCA jacks, which gives it the ability to be hooked to a more powerful amp. You mentioned "big bottom end." I haven't listened to the speakers you have, nor the listening room/treatments/speaker placement, but the specs on them state minimum recommended power is 25W and they're rated at 87dB. You probably could use a good 100W or so to get them to open up, but with already using a sub, methinks you might want to look at different speakers. Do you know anyone who has a higher powered receiver, even if you need to use a different source just to see if it's speaker related.

One other thought...I know that the H/K730 phono section (unmodified) has a bad curve...drops off the lows too abruptly. Maybe the 450 has the same phono section and could be modded back to life...

Wow, thank you. Lots to chew on there.

 

[Allison3]

Not hard is open to debate. Not everyone is up to the task. Not trying to discourage working on your own gear (I had never done it til I did, but have tinkered and taken things apart as long as I can remember), but it can have its pitfalls if you:
a: don't have at least the basic tools
b. aren't patient and willing to ask questions (and wait for the answers)
c. jump ahead with really no plan on what you're really trying to accomplish

Recapping is NOT a cure-all, nor is it a true restoration. It is good preventative maintenance if you're careful with what you're doing. But it's not going to fix problems with transistors, bias being out of whack, etc

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/wow.915320/

Now, per the OPs original post: the H/K 450 is 30 WPC. I doubt you'll notice any difference power-wise between it and a 40WPC 730. However, the 730 DOES have pre-out/main-in RCA jacks, which gives it the ability to be hooked to a more powerful amp. You mentioned "big bottom end." I haven't listened to the speakers you have, nor the listening room/treatments/speaker placement, but the specs on them state minimum recommended power is 25W and they're rated at 87dB. You probably could use a good 100W or so to get them to open up, but with already using a sub, methinks you might want to look at different speakers. Do you know anyone who has a higher powered receiver, even if you need to use a different source just to see if it's speaker related.

One other thought...I know that the H/K730 phono section (unmodified) has a bad curve...drops off the lows too abruptly. Maybe the 450 has the same phono section and could be modded back to life...

John, you're quite right on everything, and I realize that I was too quick to suggest that doing this work is 'easy' for anyone. I in fact am a tinkerer by nature (I suspect that a good portion of AK members are!), and have the basic tools, etc.

And, I've also seen no love around here for the H/K 730 phono section - is the design/EQ just different for the 730 than other models from that H/K era, e.g., the 430 or 330c? I have a Citation 17, and quite like the phono section in that.

 

[Allan Castle]

I in fact am a tinkerer by nature (I suspect that a good portion of AK members are!), and have the basic tools, etc.

Me not so much. My fine motor skills are such that there was no career path in piano, modern dance, or a/v repair. But I know a decent repair guy so happy to pick up vintage gear that just needs a bit of this or that.

 

[Allison3]

Me not so much. My fine motor skills are such that there was no career path in piano, modern dance, or a/v repair. But I know a decent repair guy so happy to pick up vintage gear that just needs a bit of this or that.

I'm still trying to find my "decent repair guy". I'd make sure he never went hungry, LOL

 

[jheu02]

Re: 730 phono stage (unmodified), have a look at this thread. Post mods, it apparently rocks. I did them to my A-402, and it sounds good to me, but I didn't listen to it prior as I don't do a lot of album listening anymore.

Allan, though you're vinyl only, do you have access to any other source that you could test out the "phono stage circuit is rubbish" hypothesis? Even just trying via the Tuner portion of the 450. If you get the quality of bass from say a CD or even iPod-type source (phone, MP3, etc) through the Aux input the you know that the phono section of the receiver could be tweaked for better performance.

 

[Allan Castle]

Re: 730 phono stage (unmodified), have a look at this thread. Post mods, it apparently rocks. I did them to my A-402, and it sounds good to me, but I didn't listen to it prior as I don't do a lot of album listening anymore.

Allan, though you're vinyl only, do you have access to any other source that you could test out the "phono stage circuit is rubbish" hypothesis? Even just trying via the Tuner portion of the 450. If you get the quality of bass from say a CD or even iPod-type source (phone, MP3, etc) through the Aux input the you know that the phono section of the receiver could be tweaked for better performance.

That's a good idea. I do have a cheap CD player hooked up. Will try.

 

[jheu02]

Any word?

 

[Allan Castle]

Any word?

Sadly I’ve been occupied with other projects and hi-fi fiddling has had to take a back seat this month. Will update. Thanks.

 

[JMiP]

I love my HK 730, but yeah, the phono section brings me no joy. I bought another HK 730 phono section on ebay and the needed components from Mouser to upgrade it and will one day do that, but I just need to get more confident in my soldering abilities. In the meantime, though, I am using a separate phono preamp that I have plugged into one of the non-phono inputs on the 730 and it sounds fantastic. Really, there's no good reason to use something other than this phono pre, but I want to tinker around. That receiver and my KLH 23 speakers go together like two items that normally go together extremely well.

You might also want to look into upgrading the cart on the turntable? And possibly different speakers? If you have the funds to do either of those, I highly suggest becoming a subscriber on this site and hit Barter Town. I have purchased pretty much all of my current hifi components from that part of this site.

 

[Allan Castle]

Any word?

I did the CD comparison (via AUX input, using an entry-level Sony DVP SR210P) and what I observed was:

• CD was ~25% louder
• when adjusted to similar volume, there was a touch more bass from the CD... but also an aversively high amount of hi-range. Not sure what right word is to describe it but it seemed brash and kind of grating, whereas the vinyl feed was warmer and more subtle. I could easily have turned the vinyl up as far as I wished, but there was an upper threshold on the CD which made louder much less pleasant, even though in neither case was I blasting it.

The first comparison was Led Zeppelin I, but then I realized that my vinyl was the recent remaster and might sound inherently different from the CD which is I think from the original CD release of the album. So I then compared using Highway To Hell + Songs In The Key Of Life. Same outcome.

So, the phono stage sounds good (great, even). But it seems to have a less powerful output than the AUX stage. Which leads me back to my idea that I may just have too little amp for the speakers.

 

[Allan Castle]

You might also want to look into upgrading the cart on the turntable? And possibly different speakers?

Would a different cartridge have a noticeably different impact on signal power?

 

[Allan Castle]

Would a different cartridge have a noticeably different impact on signal power?

Because I did some research a while ago and the Nagaoka MP-110H appeared to be the way to go. Though I wasn't really trying to solve a signal power issue when I was looking.

 

[jheu02]

The output of the cartridge will affect the perceived volume. The A-402 I just finished up also has a lower volume level on the phono section than the line level inputs, so it would seem that H/H gear of that era were designed with photo sections that have less gain than other gear. I have not noticed this with the s a me turntable hooked up to other gear...their phone sections amplify the cartridge signal to a higher degree, and therefore there isn't the disparity between phono and other sources.

 

[Allan Castle]

The output of the cartridge will affect the perceived volume. The A-402 I just finished up also has a lower volume level on the phono section than the line level inputs, so it would seem that H/H gear of that era were designed with photo sections that have less gain than other gear. I have not noticed this with the s a me turntable hooked up to other gear...their phone sections amplify the cartridge signal to a higher degree, and therefore there isn't the disparity between phono and other sources.

Copy that. So it may be an "era of amp" thing as much as anything else...