Why are the older idler wheel turntables so highly regarded?
- Thread starter randomuser01
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- garrard thorens turntables
On a Commonwealth, the spindle bearing is like a car stub axle.
Frbock
Active Member
Thru the years, I had a Lenco L75 which worked reasonably well, but in spite of the weight tended to pick up unwanted sounds. I had a Technics SL20 with a Stanton 681EEE, then a couple Dual TTs (mid grade, Ortofon LM cartridge on the last one). Then I bought a Pro-Ject 1.2 and popped a Sumiko Blue Point on it. That was about the point I sopped listening to records, and started listening to the music. I replaced it with a Pro-ject Carbon Esprit/SB. On a drive basis, I'm back to my Technics with a servo lock to control speed. On the other hand, I do have a carbon tonearm.You’re original statement about which idlers were “low end” kinda negates your comments about not being a drive snob…..
The main design/engineering reason to try different idler orientations is to claim lower noise, Gates, Lenco and Thorens all had slightly different approaches but none were to eliminate your platter movement hypotheses.
EMT and ROK had some huge (thick & wide) idlers on their big tables with heavy platters but Fairchild had a 35 pound platter on a belt drive, never measured the actual pressure but would assume the belt belt when tightened puts as much or more?
Plus as previously mentioned, upward pressure on a platter like Lenco or inward pressure like Gates, or even a belt pulling from thee side, wouldn’t solve movement issues if they existed.
It’s all just fun to discuss, we’re not going to settle the drive arguments here….
VR
Andy
Sometimes we just like something we can't put our finger on.
I've always hated Starbucks coffee, and I never understood why people would drink it. I was chatting with a coffee roaster several years ago, and I got the answer. Starbucks ran their roasters 25 degrees hotter than other roasters. It shortened the roasting time enough to do 1 extra roast per hour. Most people can't taste it, but about 10-15% of the people find it bitter and nasty.
Sadly, I find Dunki pretty weak and flavorless.
Lots of very good idlers used a horizontal wheel (Thorens 124 for example)
Any sideways movement would result in a degradation of W&F specs.
If the specs are good, then this is not a big problem.
Regardless of the size of a typical vinyl groove, theoretical deflection of the platter due to idler pressure, belt stretch in belt drive, clogging in direct drive or the dozens of other potential issues in the various drive methods; isn’t the proof in the pudding? Do drive methods affect the playback in ways that are audible? That’s central to this discussion, I think. Some people believe that If a turntable spins at a constant 33.33rpm with low W/F it is as good as it gets. I’m not in that camp and am really enjoying my idler because it draws me into the music with a serious boogie factor. Call it PRAT if you like.
adnick
Addicted Member
Totally aware that some people don’t or can’t perceive what @Blackdog61 is describing, others just deny such a thing exists, here’s a short story about my personal experiences:
Have a Garrard model Ta it’s sorta a belt drive idler (very short belt) with a strange platter, but the thing sounds better than expected with a modern tonearm, but that’s an aside topic…..
In the 90s my preference was DD tables, actually thought idlers were antiquated….after retirement my first serious table was a high end Japanese DD, beautiful, lovely sounding machine, and was content
My need for some hobby projects coupled with ridiculously low prices, caused me to purchase my first big ancient idler; serviced it, built a plinth and thought it’s a nice conversation/show piece. To my total surprise I noticed that my unconscious choice was to play the idler over the DD, it even took me a while to realize my bias, maybe a year or so.
Was in total denial at first, this just can’t be, the Japanese DD just trounced the old idler in every published turntable specification, why was the idler receiving more play, it didn’t even have my best cartridge or tonearm….It’s still somewhat of a mystery to me, but my buddy who’s a musician says he notices a difference in presentation almost immediately, and I only asked him which table he liked best (he doesn’t own a turntable).
I’m now a firmly attached to my old idlers, but understand why others are not, without the desire, ability or sources to construct a decent plinth and do general maintenance, hiring those things out is cost prohibitive for many. One could say, I’m a turntable buff at heart, so there’s always a combination of drive types in my collection, not a drive type snob, just a turntable snob.
Andy
Have a Garrard model Ta it’s sorta a belt drive idler (very short belt) with a strange platter, but the thing sounds better than expected with a modern tonearm, but that’s an aside topic…..
In the 90s my preference was DD tables, actually thought idlers were antiquated….after retirement my first serious table was a high end Japanese DD, beautiful, lovely sounding machine, and was content
My need for some hobby projects coupled with ridiculously low prices, caused me to purchase my first big ancient idler; serviced it, built a plinth and thought it’s a nice conversation/show piece. To my total surprise I noticed that my unconscious choice was to play the idler over the DD, it even took me a while to realize my bias, maybe a year or so.
Was in total denial at first, this just can’t be, the Japanese DD just trounced the old idler in every published turntable specification, why was the idler receiving more play, it didn’t even have my best cartridge or tonearm….It’s still somewhat of a mystery to me, but my buddy who’s a musician says he notices a difference in presentation almost immediately, and I only asked him which table he liked best (he doesn’t own a turntable).
I’m now a firmly attached to my old idlers, but understand why others are not, without the desire, ability or sources to construct a decent plinth and do general maintenance, hiring those things out is cost prohibitive for many. One could say, I’m a turntable buff at heart, so there’s always a combination of drive types in my collection, not a drive type snob, just a turntable snob.
Andy
flavio81
Turntable technician
Totally aware that some people don’t or can’t perceive what @Blackdog61 is describing, others just deny such a thing exists, here’s a short story about my personal experiences:
Have a Garrard model Ta it’s sorta a belt drive idler (very short belt) with a strange platter, but the thing sounds better than expected with a modern tonearm, but that’s an aside topic…..
In the 90s my preference was DD tables, actually thought idlers were antiquated….after retirement my first serious table was a high end Japanese DD, beautiful, lovely sounding machine, and was content
My need for some hobby projects coupled with ridiculously low prices, caused me to purchase my first big ancient idler; serviced it, built a plinth and thought it’s a nice conversation/show piece. To my total surprise I noticed that my unconscious choice was to play the idler over the DD, it even took me a while to realize my bias, maybe a year or so.
Was in total denial at first, this just can’t be, the Japanese DD just trounced the old idler in every published turntable specification, why was the idler receiving more play, it didn’t even have my best cartridge or tonearm….It’s still somewhat of a mystery to me, but my buddy who’s a musician says he notices a difference in presentation almost immediately, and I only asked him which table he liked best (he doesn’t own a turntable).
I’m now a firmly attached to my old idlers, but understand why others are not, without the desire, ability or sources to construct a decent plinth and do general maintenance, hiring those things out is cost prohibitive for many. One could say, I’m a turntable buff at heart, so there’s always a combination of drive types in my collection, not a drive type snob, just a turntable snob.
Andy
Hello Andy,
May I know which japanese DD it was? Because not all DDs are equal and i'm trying to find the DDs with the closest sound to idlers...
Best regards,
Flavio.
adnick
Addicted Member
Flavio:
Most of my DD tables were Denon’s DP75 or 80s, with only a couple exceptions ( Kenwood & Technics) don’t know which DD would sound more like an idler but an early Fairchild 412 with a full cage is an example of a belt drive that does, and based on that, the Fairchild 750 has an even higher probability of doing so.
Andy
flavio81
Turntable technician
Flavio:
Most of my DD tables were Denon’s DP75 or 80s, with only a couple exceptions ( Kenwood & Technics) don’t know which DD would sound more like an idler but an early Fairchild 412 with a full cage is an example of a belt drive that does, and based on that, the Fairchild 750 has an even higher probability of doing so.
Andy
Wow, what a nice choice, they use 3-phase AC motors, some of the smoothest method of driving a DD table.
You are lucky to own a Fairchild 412... pretty rare machine.
adnick
Addicted Member
Thanks, been extremely blessed with my turntable journey in the past couple of years, been able to collect some of my most admired examples….
The Fairchild’s are still extreme bargains, especially considering their original cost and performance potential….
Andy
DD cogging at least in decent turntables like Technics has been busted as a myth ages ago.
Cogging is actually a problem for belt drives and idler drives as the motor pulses past its poles.
Ages ago there was a thread with circular linear plots and the sl1200mk2 and the SP10MK2 both had excellent plots showing DD cogging is a non issue, if cogging was an issue it would show up in the plots.
Chris
flavio81
Turntable technician
Many idler wheel drive turntables, for example the Lenco and the Garrard 301/401, use non-synchronous induction motors that are very smooth in rotation compared to the typical synchronous motor on BD tables.
My point was to push some of the talking points to the margins and just listen.
!!!
