Wood Glue as Vinyl Cleaner
- Thread starter Mopic5
- Start date
Jose Garcia
Member
Yep.. way to expensive :thumbsdn:
On the other hand, they are selling this for another purpose and not for record cleaning. In their application, they can use it several times before running out of the stuff.
Jose
Dynacophil
I ain't Phil, I'm 'phile
that used to be the price for 500ml Discofilm
Jose Garcia
Member
Like any "good merchandiser" would proclaim ( sorry if there is anyone here at the forum...
) :" We will not increase the price of the product, believe me, we won't"...
"We just reduced the size for your convenience"...:scratch2:Jose
LPMike
Vinyllicus Diversicus
Hello all!
First post here... been collecting Vinyl since 1983... recently upgraded my consumer 1980's system to the beginnings of a higher end setup... wont go into details, but ive listened to and cleaned thousands of "sides" over the years... My vintage discwasher brush i bought in 1985 is finally giving up the ghost and falling apart and my zerostat i bought at the same time is almost dead (but I can still manage to shoot some ions with gentle persuasion)... I ran across the totally bizarre wood glue thread and after reading (and reading and reading) decided I had an LP that I could easily live with losing... QUEEN - News of The World: Sandpaper Edition... Nothing lost either way... A great LP, but my copy was trashed already...
I did the tape "tab" on wet thing... BAD idea... conclusion DO NOT put tape on the wet glue! first glue removal after the 8 hour dry time came off in 3 pieces... where the tape was in one spot there was a tiny area of glue left (i re-applied a quarter size glue and after it dried removed the rest, but i do not recommend this "touch-up" method if at ALL possible... conclusion: let it all dry and get it all off in ONE piece.
Starting a lift WITHIN the grooves/tracks is asking for trouble.. only start a lift at the outside edges away from where the needle plays... any tiny remnant out here flick off easily... not the case if you try this in the groove/track areas!
AT this point I felt 100% comfortable with my technique adjustments and had very little fear of damaging a record.
2nd LP was a actually 4 LPs including some very rare ones:
Material Issue Int'l Pop Overthrow
Anita O'Day Sings - (Verve Orange Label)
Ray Charles Modern Sounds in Country & Western
2001: A Space Oddyssey
All except 2001 were pretty rare but they all had prior existing physical scratching that I had resigned myself to living with.... (Mat'l Issue being the best condition but played with some ticks and pops.. here and there..) So what was there to lose?
2001 being a somewhat quiet LP (with a few exceptions) was a tough one.. lots of surface noise and a few pops but very playable
Ray Charles was a $1 flea Market find and is an original Paramount label... but depressingly it played noisey when i got it (after a thorough discwasher and zerostat cleaning still alot of surface noise and crackles...
Anita O'Day being an very very old original eBay bargain has been sent through a sander it seems.. playable but LOTS of surface noise and crackles tics and pops throughout...
THE RESULTS:
Ive concluded that you can do this glue thing VERY safely.
Use enough glue to give a medium (NOT TOO THIN) coat of glue across the record as explained in previous posts. Better more than less. Let dry at LEAST 8 hours. No Tape until Dry!
When dry use transparent (scotch) tape around play-in (first track) perimeter of record (overlap 3" or so pieces) circumference. You can add 4-6 "spokes" of tape it you want... but not neccesary. Rub the tape onto the dried glue well, esp. around outer edges.
Start a tiny spot lift up off vinyl at outer edge (may take some gingerly nibbling with your fingernail to get a lift... so be sure you spread glue out to the very edge (where the the needle never goes) Once you get a lift on the glue its a simple matter to work ALL AROUND FIRST... get the perimeter circumference of the glue lifted off the vinyl.. do NOT try to pull it all off first.
Once you get the outer ring of the glue lifted all-around pick a spot and smoothly pull the film off teh record rotating as you go to keep a even pull as you go, adjusting as needed to make the flim pull off easily and in one nice piece. EASY! None to very few if any "flecks" will be left and if they are they will most likely be way out on outside edge of vinyl where needle never plays..
LISTENING RESULTS:
You can never "lift-away" scratches. Its impossible so I had to accept that... BUT!
Pulling the FLOOR out from Anita O'Day was amazing... Yes the FLOOR.. Where before, even after a thorough discwasher/zerostat session she was singing on a Floor of surface noise in a room filled with Snap, Crackle and Pop... after the wood glue trick the rice Krispies remained, but Anita was floating over a sea of Silence. AMAZING Clarity. Where before her "esses" were more "EZHHZEZZ" they now had the sharpness of a needle.. the crispness and clarity was noticeable through the tics... She sprang forward, along with more defined bass and spacial depth cymbals and harp popped now... closest thing I could relate it too was an upgrade in stylus. (BTW: Im using an EMPIRE 1000SE/X with a 237DEM) VERDICT: This old LP went up at least 1 grade from FAIR to GOOD.
Material Issue. although this LP was in better shape than the above, it did improve slighly.... again, the FLOOR of noise was gone. tic and pop here and there remained, but behind it silence. Grade Improvement from VG to VG+
Ray Charles... Cleaned up his act in a similar fashion to Anita, although still not as bad. Grade improvement from G to VG
2001: no noticeable improvement. I think I had this one as clean as possible beforehand. Stayed at VG+
First post here... been collecting Vinyl since 1983... recently upgraded my consumer 1980's system to the beginnings of a higher end setup... wont go into details, but ive listened to and cleaned thousands of "sides" over the years... My vintage discwasher brush i bought in 1985 is finally giving up the ghost and falling apart and my zerostat i bought at the same time is almost dead (but I can still manage to shoot some ions with gentle persuasion)... I ran across the totally bizarre wood glue thread and after reading (and reading and reading) decided I had an LP that I could easily live with losing... QUEEN - News of The World: Sandpaper Edition... Nothing lost either way... A great LP, but my copy was trashed already...
I did the tape "tab" on wet thing... BAD idea... conclusion DO NOT put tape on the wet glue! first glue removal after the 8 hour dry time came off in 3 pieces... where the tape was in one spot there was a tiny area of glue left (i re-applied a quarter size glue and after it dried removed the rest, but i do not recommend this "touch-up" method if at ALL possible... conclusion: let it all dry and get it all off in ONE piece.
Starting a lift WITHIN the grooves/tracks is asking for trouble.. only start a lift at the outside edges away from where the needle plays... any tiny remnant out here flick off easily... not the case if you try this in the groove/track areas!
AT this point I felt 100% comfortable with my technique adjustments and had very little fear of damaging a record.
2nd LP was a actually 4 LPs including some very rare ones:
Material Issue Int'l Pop Overthrow
Anita O'Day Sings - (Verve Orange Label)
Ray Charles Modern Sounds in Country & Western
2001: A Space Oddyssey
All except 2001 were pretty rare but they all had prior existing physical scratching that I had resigned myself to living with.... (Mat'l Issue being the best condition but played with some ticks and pops.. here and there..) So what was there to lose?
2001 being a somewhat quiet LP (with a few exceptions) was a tough one.. lots of surface noise and a few pops but very playable
Ray Charles was a $1 flea Market find and is an original Paramount label... but depressingly it played noisey when i got it (after a thorough discwasher and zerostat cleaning still alot of surface noise and crackles...
Anita O'Day being an very very old original eBay bargain has been sent through a sander it seems.. playable but LOTS of surface noise and crackles tics and pops throughout...
THE RESULTS:
Ive concluded that you can do this glue thing VERY safely.
Use enough glue to give a medium (NOT TOO THIN) coat of glue across the record as explained in previous posts. Better more than less. Let dry at LEAST 8 hours. No Tape until Dry!
When dry use transparent (scotch) tape around play-in (first track) perimeter of record (overlap 3" or so pieces) circumference. You can add 4-6 "spokes" of tape it you want... but not neccesary. Rub the tape onto the dried glue well, esp. around outer edges.
Start a tiny spot lift up off vinyl at outer edge (may take some gingerly nibbling with your fingernail to get a lift... so be sure you spread glue out to the very edge (where the the needle never goes) Once you get a lift on the glue its a simple matter to work ALL AROUND FIRST... get the perimeter circumference of the glue lifted off the vinyl.. do NOT try to pull it all off first.
Once you get the outer ring of the glue lifted all-around pick a spot and smoothly pull the film off teh record rotating as you go to keep a even pull as you go, adjusting as needed to make the flim pull off easily and in one nice piece. EASY! None to very few if any "flecks" will be left and if they are they will most likely be way out on outside edge of vinyl where needle never plays..
LISTENING RESULTS:
You can never "lift-away" scratches. Its impossible so I had to accept that... BUT!
Pulling the FLOOR out from Anita O'Day was amazing... Yes the FLOOR.. Where before, even after a thorough discwasher/zerostat session she was singing on a Floor of surface noise in a room filled with Snap, Crackle and Pop... after the wood glue trick the rice Krispies remained, but Anita was floating over a sea of Silence. AMAZING Clarity. Where before her "esses" were more "EZHHZEZZ" they now had the sharpness of a needle.. the crispness and clarity was noticeable through the tics... She sprang forward, along with more defined bass and spacial depth cymbals and harp popped now... closest thing I could relate it too was an upgrade in stylus. (BTW: Im using an EMPIRE 1000SE/X with a 237DEM) VERDICT: This old LP went up at least 1 grade from FAIR to GOOD.
Material Issue. although this LP was in better shape than the above, it did improve slighly.... again, the FLOOR of noise was gone. tic and pop here and there remained, but behind it silence. Grade Improvement from VG to VG+
Ray Charles... Cleaned up his act in a similar fashion to Anita, although still not as bad. Grade improvement from G to VG
2001: no noticeable improvement. I think I had this one as clean as possible beforehand. Stayed at VG+
Last edited:
Jose Garcia
Member
I found it
Site:
http://www5.decks.de/decks-sess/dec...orkfloor/list_zub.php?nowstyle=dt&substyle=dc
Productiscofilm..
http://www5.decks.de/decks-sess/workfloor/details_zub.php?wo=zub&code=bma-zk
Jose
Site:
http://www5.decks.de/decks-sess/dec...orkfloor/list_zub.php?nowstyle=dt&substyle=dc
Product
iscofilm..http://www5.decks.de/decks-sess/workfloor/details_zub.php?wo=zub&code=bma-zk
Jose
Jose Garcia
Member
Another one ( the source?).. This one was on a page from Enjoythemusic 2002.
http://www.sound-magic.de/inside/index.htm
http://www.sound-magic.de/inside/index.htm
Jose
http://www.sound-magic.de/inside/index.htm
http://www.sound-magic.de/inside/index.htm
Jose
Dynacophil
I ain't Phil, I'm 'phile
not too cheap, but if they are able to deliver, maybe the best.
the offer the starter-set and the fluid solo.
the offer the starter-set and the fluid solo.
I found it
Site:
http://www5.decks.de/decks-sess/dec...orkfloor/list_zub.php?nowstyle=dt&substyle=dc
Product
http://www5.decks.de/decks-sess/workfloor/details_zub.php?wo=zub&code=bma-zk
Jose
Jose Garcia
Member
What does this product is make off?
Does anybody know or have a clue what could possibly be?
If we could just find some domestic product that can be used with the same results, and at a low cost..!
Jose
Does anybody know or have a clue what could possibly be?
If we could just find some domestic product that can be used with the same results, and at a low cost..!
Jose
Dynacophil
I ain't Phil, I'm 'phile
Hi
can't really tell...
but: i wrote sometimes in some posts here that it's recyclable.
I use it up to 10 times before refreshing it with a shot out of a new bottle.
it works really fine, just loosing its elastacity from time to time, and, sure, gets dirty. dirt sinks to the bottom, so it is no problem for general use, but i find it starts stinking after a while and some recycling-cycles.
I collect the dried films and losen them in aquadest (denat. water).
Takes a few days until its ready for use.
if you count a 10x use, its getting cheaper...
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
I bit the bullet with this cleaning method. I made my first test on a scrap record applying wood glue on the first track of one side, just as a suitability test of the glue.
It did work, but I discovered that the improvement was minimal.
I attributed that to the fact that the glue was applied without thinning and I just spread the glue over the track.
I used "Humbrol" wood glue, which is the same as carpenter's glue, simply it was what I had available at the moment.
I started a second test last night.
I thinned the glue by about 20% DI. I applied the glue in small amounts using a paint brush, scrubbing the glue over the grooves, working it in an X fashion over the grooves, so as to make sure that glue penetrates the grooves.
I theorise that thinning the glue helps it penetrate the grooves more easily.
I recorded the LP on the PC prior to this process, so that I can compare the scratch and pops before and after. I can tell you that the before situation was horrible.
The glue was dry this morning (after 10-12 hours) and I succesfully removed the film in one large piece. I didn't even have time to listen to it, though, as I decided I wanted to first scrub it with warm water, soap, alcohol and rinse it with DI before it goes back to the TT.
I will, of course, go through this process this afternoon and see what improvement it made. I will record some representative sections and post them as well.
BTW, why is it that in such a long thread, nobody has posted before/after samples to realistically appreciate the effectiveness of each method / variation?
It did work, but I discovered that the improvement was minimal.
I attributed that to the fact that the glue was applied without thinning and I just spread the glue over the track.
I used "Humbrol" wood glue, which is the same as carpenter's glue, simply it was what I had available at the moment.
I started a second test last night.
I thinned the glue by about 20% DI. I applied the glue in small amounts using a paint brush, scrubbing the glue over the grooves, working it in an X fashion over the grooves, so as to make sure that glue penetrates the grooves.
I theorise that thinning the glue helps it penetrate the grooves more easily.
I recorded the LP on the PC prior to this process, so that I can compare the scratch and pops before and after. I can tell you that the before situation was horrible.
The glue was dry this morning (after 10-12 hours) and I succesfully removed the film in one large piece. I didn't even have time to listen to it, though, as I decided I wanted to first scrub it with warm water, soap, alcohol and rinse it with DI before it goes back to the TT.
I will, of course, go through this process this afternoon and see what improvement it made. I will record some representative sections and post them as well.
BTW, why is it that in such a long thread, nobody has posted before/after samples to realistically appreciate the effectiveness of each method / variation?
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
So, here is my update.
I peeled off the glue film. It's been almost 22 hours since I applied the glue layer and the film remained strong and elastic. I peeled towards the direction of the grooves, i.e. I started peeling off at an edge, and used a pair of scissors to cut the film as I approached the center of the LP.
Once I cut through I started peeling one end of the "ring" towards the direction of the grooves. I found much less resistance that way and my hypothesis is that this way, most of the grit that attached itself on the film would remain there.
Once the film was off, there were several small pieces of glue film that were attached on the edge of the LP. I was overzealous when I applied the glue and made sure it covered the outer rim of the LP. This wasn't necessary and I had to remove them with my fingernail. Won't do that again.
I then rinsed the LP under tap water with soap creme and used a large brush to apply the soap and work it round the grooves.
I then wiped the LP dry and rinsed it once more with DI water. (I must add here that the water in my home goes through a filter so even though tap water isn't distilled or deionised, it contains much less solid particles than normal.
After drying the LP with a hairdryer (I was anxious) I put it on my TT and played the first few tracks, while I recorded again on my PC.
I attach the first half minute from the first track. I think the audio sample speaks for itself. Each sample converted to MP3 in relatively high quality settings and zipped.
I believe that even the size of the audio file (each converted using the exact same settings and contains the exact same length of audio) implies the amount of surface noise removed.
Looking forward for comments.
I peeled off the glue film. It's been almost 22 hours since I applied the glue layer and the film remained strong and elastic. I peeled towards the direction of the grooves, i.e. I started peeling off at an edge, and used a pair of scissors to cut the film as I approached the center of the LP.
Once I cut through I started peeling one end of the "ring" towards the direction of the grooves. I found much less resistance that way and my hypothesis is that this way, most of the grit that attached itself on the film would remain there.
Once the film was off, there were several small pieces of glue film that were attached on the edge of the LP. I was overzealous when I applied the glue and made sure it covered the outer rim of the LP. This wasn't necessary and I had to remove them with my fingernail. Won't do that again.
I then rinsed the LP under tap water with soap creme and used a large brush to apply the soap and work it round the grooves.
I then wiped the LP dry and rinsed it once more with DI water. (I must add here that the water in my home goes through a filter so even though tap water isn't distilled or deionised, it contains much less solid particles than normal.
After drying the LP with a hairdryer (I was anxious) I put it on my TT and played the first few tracks, while I recorded again on my PC.
I attach the first half minute from the first track. I think the audio sample speaks for itself. Each sample converted to MP3 in relatively high quality settings and zipped.
I believe that even the size of the audio file (each converted using the exact same settings and contains the exact same length of audio) implies the amount of surface noise removed.
Looking forward for comments.
rushfan
Super Member
Wow - that's a pretty big difference!
Thanks for taking the time to post this. It was a pretty convincing demonstration.
Very impressive results.
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
Thank you for the comments. I am actually looking for comments from people with VPI and other RCM machines that work with vacum cleaning. Do these machines clean this much?
I have put a second layer of glue on the same LP face, to check if a second cleaning can further remove the few pops that were left after the first treatment. I will report on that in a few hours.
BTW, this glue thing - IMHO - should not be considered a cleaning method. Cleaning is what you do before playing an LP and - if you are anal - after play, before storage. It's supposed to take half a minute - tops.
I think that this treatment is actually a restoration process and that after it has been done, the LPs will only need the simple cleaning that discwasher or carbon fibre brushes offer.
What do you think? From people that have treated LPs with glue, did you have to repeat the treatment regularly or was that a once off thing?
I have put a second layer of glue on the same LP face, to check if a second cleaning can further remove the few pops that were left after the first treatment. I will report on that in a few hours.
BTW, this glue thing - IMHO - should not be considered a cleaning method. Cleaning is what you do before playing an LP and - if you are anal - after play, before storage. It's supposed to take half a minute - tops.
I think that this treatment is actually a restoration process and that after it has been done, the LPs will only need the simple cleaning that discwasher or carbon fibre brushes offer.
What do you think? From people that have treated LPs with glue, did you have to repeat the treatment regularly or was that a once off thing?
WOW!!!!
Huge difference. Like you stated....just look at the size of the two files.
Thanks for going to the trouble.
Huge difference. Like you stated....just look at the size of the two files.
Thanks for going to the trouble.
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
Following my impressive success with wood glue and that poor noisy disk, and having exhausted my supply of Humbrol glue, I went out to buy new glue and test on more LPs.
So I tested some less noisy disks with a different glue and had very limited success. One LP was silenced marginally (only in the silent grooves between tracks and there only marginally) and another was not changed at all (at least it didn't worsen in clicks and pops).
I suspect two possible reasons:
The wood glue won't help good contition LPs. It will only improve very gritty ones.
OR
It depends on the actual formula of the glue. Some glue formulas will have better results than others.
Since I have kept the "beauty masks" I removed from each LP I cured, I investigated the first two ones and the subsequent ones using the different glue.
My current finding is that the first LP tested, using the Humbrol modelling glue, has left a very hard impression of the grooves in the mask. Scratching the mask with a fingernail, I find the groove impressions deep and strong.
The new glue I tried later has created much softer masks and the groove impressions appear to be much softer and shallower.
I currently theorise that the humbrol glue is much more suitable for this cleaning method. I have to get hold of some more of that and test it with LPs that failed to improve so that I can confirm or disprove this theory.
Has anyone else found out mixed results using different glues?
I will later post a picture of the Humbrol glue bottle.
So I tested some less noisy disks with a different glue and had very limited success. One LP was silenced marginally (only in the silent grooves between tracks and there only marginally) and another was not changed at all (at least it didn't worsen in clicks and pops).
I suspect two possible reasons:
The wood glue won't help good contition LPs. It will only improve very gritty ones.
OR
It depends on the actual formula of the glue. Some glue formulas will have better results than others.
Since I have kept the "beauty masks" I removed from each LP I cured, I investigated the first two ones and the subsequent ones using the different glue.
My current finding is that the first LP tested, using the Humbrol modelling glue, has left a very hard impression of the grooves in the mask. Scratching the mask with a fingernail, I find the groove impressions deep and strong.
The new glue I tried later has created much softer masks and the groove impressions appear to be much softer and shallower.
I currently theorise that the humbrol glue is much more suitable for this cleaning method. I have to get hold of some more of that and test it with LPs that failed to improve so that I can confirm or disprove this theory.
Has anyone else found out mixed results using different glues?
I will later post a picture of the Humbrol glue bottle.
SaSi
Seriously Illogical
Hello all, your wood glue neophyte checking in.
I continued my experiments with the glue. The first important discovery is that it takes only a tiny layer of glue to form an effective film that can later be removed in a single piece. The thin layer of glue (marginally whitening the black vinyl) dries off also much much faster (1-2 hours instead of 12), and works with the same effectiveness.
I have also found that working the glue with a small paintbrush on a rotating platter is the fastest and most effective application method. The brush creates a more or less uniform layer and seems to work the glue in the grooves.
This time I am attaching a sample from a really old and abused LP. This belonged to my inlaws and was played on an old Grundig console TT equipped with a heavyweight ceramic needle.
No LP cleaning, lot's of fingerprints but not really visible scratches. I originally cleaned the LP using the normal discwasher brush ritual. After a couple of cleanings, it became visually impeccable - like mint condition.
You can listen to how it sounds in the "Before Glue" sample.
I applied a very thin layer of glue on this LP using a paintbrush on a rotating platter. Minimal amount of glue compared to my previous application method.
Film dried out in 1.5 hours, peeled off, cleaned again with discwasher (wet).
The results are in the "after glue" sample file.
The click and pop removal is again very apparent. However, there is an additional issue with this LP. There was audible distortion and masking of sound, to the extent it was not usable.
The cleaning didn't only remove most of the clicks and pops, but it also removed some of the masking and distortion. The organs now sound like they should, although there is still audible distortion and some masking, mostly in the louder passages.
I would like to believe a second application of glue would remove most of that, but my experiments to date have proven that the first application does all that can be done.
But, I haven't tried any LP in such a horrible condition before. What do you think? Would a second layer do its magic ?
I continued my experiments with the glue. The first important discovery is that it takes only a tiny layer of glue to form an effective film that can later be removed in a single piece. The thin layer of glue (marginally whitening the black vinyl) dries off also much much faster (1-2 hours instead of 12), and works with the same effectiveness.
I have also found that working the glue with a small paintbrush on a rotating platter is the fastest and most effective application method. The brush creates a more or less uniform layer and seems to work the glue in the grooves.
This time I am attaching a sample from a really old and abused LP. This belonged to my inlaws and was played on an old Grundig console TT equipped with a heavyweight ceramic needle.
No LP cleaning, lot's of fingerprints but not really visible scratches. I originally cleaned the LP using the normal discwasher brush ritual. After a couple of cleanings, it became visually impeccable - like mint condition.
You can listen to how it sounds in the "Before Glue" sample.
I applied a very thin layer of glue on this LP using a paintbrush on a rotating platter. Minimal amount of glue compared to my previous application method.
Film dried out in 1.5 hours, peeled off, cleaned again with discwasher (wet).
The results are in the "after glue" sample file.
The click and pop removal is again very apparent. However, there is an additional issue with this LP. There was audible distortion and masking of sound, to the extent it was not usable.
The cleaning didn't only remove most of the clicks and pops, but it also removed some of the masking and distortion. The organs now sound like they should, although there is still audible distortion and some masking, mostly in the louder passages.
I would like to believe a second application of glue would remove most of that, but my experiments to date have proven that the first application does all that can be done.
But, I haven't tried any LP in such a horrible condition before. What do you think? Would a second layer do its magic ?