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Magnavox 142 - rebuild/modification thread

I did some quick O-scope checks on my nearly stock 142* and I saw virtually the same type of situation that we saw with Mark's amp. An X/Y plot at 10khz gives a really nice circle that slowly rotates into an ellipse at 20khz. There was no way to clip a 20khz sine wave it just got more pointy as you upped the input voltage. Power output also declined significantly as the input rose from 10khz to 20khz. With 307V on the plates and 315V on the screens I was barely over 16 watts at clipping using a 1khz sine.

I hooked it back up to my mono system and I'm listening to it now as I type this. It sounds pretty good to me but I doubt that either the records I'm playing or the speaker I'm playing them through have much content above 12khz.

*My unit is stock except I changed the coupling caps to 0.47, all three power supply electrolytics to 50uf/450v, and the feedback bypass cap is now two 4700pf caps in series. Basically it was what I had in my junk box.
 
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How does battradio's schematic simulate? Does it have the same types of issues? As far as I can see it's the same layout just with different (probably better) operating points for the 6SL7 sections.

scan0010.jpg

The phase shift is driven by the time constants of the .1uf and the 220 k ohm resistors ,the bottom half of the signal goes though two phase shifts .
C5 and R9 then C6 and R11 , its very important to not increase the capacitance of C5 and C6 as it will more phase shift to the botom half of the wave form . .05 might be a beter value for C6 and would cut doun on the phase shift .

The power out at 20 khz may be improved by using the ultra linear taps due to the local feedback being applied to only the output section and not the 6SL7 .
 
No matter what value of cap I used in spice it did the same thing on the
standard paraphase splitter, the floating paraphase was a different story.
 
No matter what value of cap I used in spice it did the same thing on the
standard paraphase splitter, the floating paraphase was a different story.

Anybody have a schematic for a floating paraphase splitter based on a 12AX7? I could rewire my 142 and check that as well.
 
The beauty of the floating paraphase it isn't tube dependent.
That circuit would work fine with the 12ax7 there to as well.
(just verified with spice, works fine)
 
If your 142 is still using the 100K RC stage to the front end drop it to the 5K there.
 
Also could you take some measurements at half power? Like 8 watts or so would be great..
(swap a 12at7 in there as well when you get it done, might be a pleasant surprise).. ;)
 
The phase shift is driven by the time constants of the .1uf and the 220 k ohm resistors ,the bottom half of the signal goes though two phase shifts .
C5 and R9 then C6 and R11 , its very important to not increase the capacitance of C5 and C6 as it will more phase shift to the botom half of the wave form . .05 might be a beter value for C6 and would cut doun on the phase shift .

The power out at 20 khz may be improved by using the ultra linear taps due to the local feedback being applied to only the output section and not the 6SL7 .


Hey Mark,

To use the UL taps would mean I would have to remove the 0D3 PS correct? Or at least disconnect it. What would you expect the circuit to do with UL? Would it improve circuit response? Would it increae the power? Cut down distortion? More stable?

Why would I want to do this? I know it is generally prefered over pentode, but why? I ask because an awful lot of work has gone into getting this amp where it is at. I don't want to have to re-do the whole circuit again.

Mark

Edit, since I am building the second now(just starting actually) it would be easy enough to try this.
THoughts anyone?
 
Hi Mark ,

Build the second amp with the ultralinear taps and listen and measure it , if you like the way it sounds and measures you can use the OD3's to stabilyse the supply to the 6SL7 .The output stage should be more stabill and linear with the UL taps connected .

Mark
 
I'm with Batt, build the second one using the UL taps, And the floating paraphase circuit.
 
I soldered up the other paraphase circuit but it farts at me at higher output power. I must have screwed something up. I'll crack her back open in the morning and get it figured out.

The initial O-scope tests at 10khz-20khz didn't look much different than the original circuit but the voltages on the upper and lower 6v6 grids were in better agreement. The plate voltages on the two sections of the 12AX7 were 167 and 155 and both cathodes were at 1.85v.

If you clip the 220pf cap out of the original circuit the amp will oscillate at 87khz even with a shorting plug on the input. I was getting 2.4v out at that frequency using a 4 ohm load. The damn thing makes a really sweet wave at that frequency but can't muster a 20khz sine worth poo.

edit: I cut the feedback loop and no farts regardless of volume now. It sounds like what I think people who don't know tube amps think all of them sound like though. Wooly bass with a layer of syrup on it. The funny thing is a little syrup on my mid 50s Les Elgart doesn't really sound that bad.
 
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I have some new chassis coming. As much as went into this, I kinda felt I might as well go all the way with them. So, I have a question. When I get new chassis and build these, I can add the 0D3 vr stabilized circuit or omit it. I can build with ul taps or not. If these were yours, what would you do?
 
Uh huh. Scuzzer's test on his own unit shows why C4 was originally so big -- to keep the original circuit with the original OPT transformer stable. Removing it made the unit "take off" as previously discussed.

Installing a different output transformer in an otherwise established design was the subject of many electronic articles all through out the 50's, because so often folks would try to build a circuit with what they had on hand. All too often, the results produced the very kind of problems experienced here. No two OPTs are the same, even with similar specs, and even two of the same model will not display the exact same HF characteristics -- although they are close enough for mass production of high fidelity equipment.

Stabilizing a feedback amplifier is very much a hands on procedure, but here is a rather simple procedure I would suggest for Cricket's amp. It works very well for most two stage amplifiers using paraphase inverters, so that Batt could use it with his Baldwin amps, and Scuzzer with own Magnavox if he makes different mods to his:

1. Start with the original feedback resistor and capacitor values in place, connected to the original OPT tap, with C4 removed (this is only to start from square one so to speak, but can be further altered as will be seen). Then, install a temporary 250K pot at the input grid of the 6SL7. Using only two terminals of the pot (slider and one outside connection), wire it in series with the grid terminal -- that is, between the terminal, and the original wiring connected to it. Leave the temporary control turned for zero resistance for now, and if there is any input gain control provided, it should be turned up full.

2. With the amp properly loaded and a scope connected to the output, apply a 10 kHz square wave to the input, at such level as necessary to obtain 1 watt output, and check that the amp is remaining stable without any value of C4 in place.

3. If it is, adjust the value of the feedback cap so that any spike the leading edge of the wave may have is brought down to the top of the wave. Make sure you are looking at the leading edge here, and not a higher spike that might appear shortly after the leading edge.

4. If the amp will not remain stable without some value of C4 installed, install the smallest value of C4 necessary to make the amplifier remain stable. Then proceed with the rest of point #3 above.

5. Finally, adjust the temporary pot so that the top of the wave smooths out. When correctly set, the sides of the wave will remain straight, but likely tilt in ever so slightly, and the leading edge will usually form a small hump at the top of the wave before coming down and returning to the top of the wave and then smoothing out. This is a very good waveform to achieve, representing what is known as "critical stability".

6. Measure the value of the pot, and then install the closest value of series resistor permanently in its place. Do not be surprised if the value of the resistor is as high as say 100K. It usually falls within the range of 15-100K.

If desired, response tests with sine waves can then be run, where you will likely find the amplifier certainly flat throughout the audio bandwidth (20-20), and usually extending at least up to 30 kHz before smoothly dropping off. Values can be tweaked if needed to achieve the best response versus square wave presentation. Also, basic stability tests can now be run as well to determine the level of stability. If it will remain stable with any value of cap connected across the load resistor, that is a great start. Then see how big a cap it can handle without the load resistor connected. If it can handle up to .05 mfd for example with no other load connected, then the amplifier is solidly stable. The very best designs will remain stable with any value of cap-only load connected, while still maintaining the best of all the other performance attributes. The best performance from a design is always achieved when a balance of all performance parameters is met, rather than any one parameter optimized at the expense of the others.

The beauty of the this method (besides it's relative simplicity), is that with any kind of decent output transformer, a "C4" is usually not required, and adjustment can be made with the variable resistor once the basic FB cap is set. Without (or with only) a minimal C4, 20 kHz THD is kept very low with this method.

I don't know what values of feedback resistors Scuz and Mark actually ended up with, but as I recall, they were tossing around sensitivity values like .28 vac to drive the amp to full power without any feedback, and 1.44 vac with feedback. If that is the case, this represents about a 5X reduction, for 14 db of feedback. This is a healthy level of FB, in that it is not so excessive as to make for a major stabilization exercise, but is enough feedback to lower output impedance, flatten response, and lower distortion as well -- all very desirable things. If you'd like to keep the value of FB resistors in place that you ended up with earlier, you can do that, and then follow the same stabilization proceedure above.

This approach works because it uses the basic input capacitance and the Miller effect taking place in the input triode to work in conjunction with the new input resistor to form a low pass network filter that controls HF response. As you know Keg -- that will of course make it much harder to model. But if your program has such data available, you could plug in the final resistor value chosen to determine the actual LP filter performance.

As for the inverter itself, I would recommend converting it to a floating paraphase type, as not only is the amplitude balance between the two outputs maintained much better, but the phase is as well over a broad frequency range. In the floating version, the bottom section actually has a significant amount of feedback around it, helping to correct these matters. It really is a significant improvement over the basic paraphase design originally in place.

Finally, as for the UL taps, all you can do is try them. If they are the all too typical "40%" taps that virtually all current transformer manufacturers offer on their transformers, it is not the best positioning for 6V6 class tubes. These tubes operate well in UL with about a 25% tapping point, and beyond that, power output starts to suffer, so all you can do is try it and see.

With the OPT transformer upgrade, power supply upgrade (regulated screens), inverter upgrade (to floating style), and stable NFB installed, Mark's amp will set a performance level others will have to work very hard at to exceed!

Dave
 
Hey Dave,
Thaks for the feedback. With that I am going to just skip the ul taps and go wth the current circuit.

I am going to take a few days off from this - honey do's.
I'll post more when I get back to it.

Mark
 
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Hey Scuzzer if your willing an wanting, there are couple measurements I'd like to see.
(even Cricket if he felt like it, and or had the time, don't want to exclude).. :)

AC voltage measurements at the 6v6 grids, 1W, 8W, just before clipping, 1k, 10K, 20K.

With no feedback at all, then with just that feedback resistor coming from that output.
(no feedback caps)

------------

Then maybe an 8w an just before clipping meassurement of the amp output power with
and without the feedback resistor and no feedback caps. 1k 10k 20k..(depending above)

-----------

Now another test and suspicion I have is trying an 12at7 in there an run the tests, these
high plate resistance/low current tubes are not good "drivers" they are fine "voltage amps"
but when asked to drive output tube grids there top end an drive can suffer from the miller
effect in the tubes there trying to drive, usually 6v6, el84 not bad, but parallel them plus go
an drive them toward clipping an the driver tube suffers here, a 12at7 would be much better.
(6SL7/12AX7 are such tubes that don't make good "driver" tubes, think low mu/plate resistance)
(12AT7 just happens to be an relatively low plate resistance tube compared to 12AX7, with gain)

The 12AT7 will drop right in the floating paraphase circuit setup for the 12AX7/6SL7 there as well.
(nice that the 12AT7 is same pin-out as 12AX7 so it plops right in, 5965 would work well here to).. :)
 
Hey Scuzzer, I am a little lost on all of the changes. Could I impose upon you to posta current schematic with e praphase splitter in it?

Kegger, If you think the 12at7 is better than the 6sl7, then when I rebuild these I can go back to that. THoughts?

I have some chassis coming, should be here in the next few days. That is also why I am kind of at a stand still.

Mark
 
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