What is the musical end-point for brain and ears

Excellent....

Go with it, my friend.
To achieve the synergy to which you elude to, one must put all things into perspective.

If every minute detail must be attended to, in order to procure the experience that you describe, then by all means....do so.
A tweak here and a turn there, can make the biggest of differences in most and many cases.
With that in mind, I must respectively indoctrinate you into the world of Hi-fi hysteria.

Welcome home.

All things being acoustically equal, your haptic system will only allow for a particular perception for and by which you allow such input, given the nature of the venue and the context by which you perceive such an occurance.

Put simply.....

PsychoAcoustics in conjunction with the inseperable acoustical value of any given space by which said material is propagated will ultimately denote the finality of ones' listening experience. IMO

IOW....it's up to you....in the end.

The ultimate experience will always be inversely proportional to your ability to completely allow for such an event to occur.

Just a quick thought for ya, dude.

It's really sooooo simple if you just think about it for a second or two.
Lest of course, your not deep enough to conceptulize such an ever present and natural, quantum event....then put rather simply..you're outta luck...chuck....and you should just quit while you're ahead.

Sounds to me like you have got an ear for the situation and should have no static in aquiring the means by which to derive the aforementioned acoustical environment in any situation.
Your brain will automatically follow suit..to accomodate for such events after, all the above, is attended to.

Have fun.......Good luck........ and god speed.


Regards,
John.

You need some binaural recordings and a pair of headphones.

Also, try not to try too hard. I have spent most of my life not listening for fidelity, just letting it happen, and enjoying every minute of it. It's only recently that I've discovered high fidelity, and have found myself frustrated with sound.

I hereby announce this thread CLOSED.
Continue it and bear the scorn of Catweazle.

I finally added the speed. But not with a new preamp, only with a power cord tring 6-7 of them, all cheap. One of them is a crazy match. How long has it taken to become normal? again 3 days.. There is the depth taking listener inside it, unbelievable resolution(guitar is more guitar than anywhere I have heard), speed and continuity that causes instruments sound in a real-time natural periods and time related properties that removed last big veil, staging involves eyes, and focusing only music, hearing and feeling the music. Fantastic for three days and now as normal as walking on the street. There is nothing to do more, walking to living room that is full of music and walking to balkony full of nature is almost the same thing hearing no lack, maybe a bit tone changes, watching bass strings more, everything in perfect balance. What is the result of long tries and hard matching in strict analise? Almost as natural as nature, perfect or almost perfect, now almost very close to be daily sounds we hear in the nature in all natural properties, that is sound of system is now normal!!Finally reached to state of sounding normal!!

pesky vortexes

Mesut I could have guessed that you were someone who has a great appreciation of nature. That makes it so much harder to achieve music satisfaction.

Hi Mesut,

There are variables in any sound system that sometimes come together brilliantly, but you have to remember these variables change all the time. It's like focus. If you're working with an eyeglass looking at something real fine, you'll sometimes find a small movement of your head, alteration in bench light, perhaps breathing a bit slower and for an instant, whatever it is you're looking at is in perfect focus. But it won't stay there. Inevitably it will drift slightly; still be in good focus, perfectly useable but your mind remembers the moment of perfect focus, perfect clarity and tries to re-create it. For sight, substitute sound. It sounds as if you have a very high quality system, perhaps too high? If the output of each componant is absolutely clean and level, in theory you could have a stable sound environment but the moment you add anything that can adjust the sound, the system will start to curve. Componant A does something you really like but slightly to harsh so you adjust this with componant B. This gets rid of the harshness, but your music is not quite as `live' as it was before. And so you go on............... You can end up spending more time adjusting things than listening to them. I work with sound. OK, it's sound made by 19th century musical boxes, but some of these machines are extrordinarily good musical instruments in threir own right; limited only by the fact that they cannot be played spontainiously; they have to play the music that has been arranged by careful placement of fine steel pins on a brass cylinder. I've been doing this now for almost 30 years, and I reckon during all that time, there were only about six music boxes where all the variables came together at the zero point and they sounded `right'. This is a difference that I could hear but most people couldn't. This is not boasting; the reason I can do this is because working with these things for as long as I have simply gives me experience. Every box I work on now, I can hear something in my head that sounded similar, but NOT THE SAME, and that's the point. Any system of two or more componants is going to be `unstable'; changes in each effect the other. Manufacturers go to great length to reduce this unstability, but it's like dividing any number by 2; no matter how long you go, you'll never reach zero. You're comparing an inherently unstable system as it sounds now with the way it sounded in that sweet spot in your memory. I think it's unatainable. It sounds as if you've been blessed (or cursed) with a musical ear that can pick out things that most people can't., and this is bound to sometimes cause you frustration. By your description, you've an audio system which at its very worst sounds better than anything I've ever heard and at its best, can give you that spark you remember forever. Enjoy it.............. Jim.

Hi Mesut,
I am very ignorant in comparison to many of the members here. Here's my $.02 worth. I think that many of us have several music sources that we listen to, as your comment about the Mp3's mentions. When I listen to my 40+ year old Lafayette, the experience takes me back in time. When I listen to my Adcom with my Altec model 17's I have an entirely different experience. I also enjoy my PC with the soundblaster card and 7.1 speakers. Not to mention my beat up old Ford truck with the crappy stereo. All are different, all are vital. Don't stop searching for sound nirvana, but also don't ignore what's in front of you.

mesut BALCI said:

Think of a movie you are watching. You see the picture ahead, and you critise picture as blured, too colorful, shifts at colors etc. And think of an 3-D movie with eyeglasses polaroid or red-blue etc. We always listen to stereos having only a stage between speakers and depth behind speakers like a picture having such depth at the back. But depth which is also created in front of speakers are just like 3-D movie. Not only speakers but the room disappears, you start to hear acoustics of record rather than the system playing in the room showing it. When this depth is serious enogh, you feel you are completely in the stage as you are in concert hall feeling that ambiance. vfet amp gave this only serious valve amps also gave this, but depth of vfet amp is terrific.

The speed is something too hard to explain, because I too only experienced in only one system. Think of a movie, you cannot critisize behaviours of actors on the film because they are natural. But when you watch a cartoon or 3D modeled film Shreek etc, behaviours of animations are out of reality. When I listeend to speed of the system I mentioned, I understood that almost all the systems produce music in a kind of slow and congested, out of timing manner simply like a modeled film. When brain sees the natural timing and speed it accepts it natural and a huge veil thus removed. Alhogh music has some missing things result is simply real concert. Our systems play music really slow very slow. This is more noticable on slow Jazz, only a couple of hits in a period but overall noticably quick, relaxed, in natural presentation revoving veils not related to openness. Openness is this.

True visible stage is too hard to achieve by stereo

Click to expand...

Not true. This is the "price of admission" that many, many balk at. I have heard systems that dissapeared, and left you with the performers standing in front of you, just like live music No if's, and's, or buts. How much is a system like this? In todays dollars about 50k + and I'm talking about YOU CANNOT "HEAR" THE SPEAKERS! It sounds like the band/performer is right in front of you. Full height ,width, depth. You swear real people are standing in front of you. In other words fully 3D. It doesnt happen very often but it is out there, you just have to pay for it.

Yes there are really terrific systems, especially in last 2 years. I sometimes go to hi-end stores to listen to and to unwantedly catch what lackings I currently have to cure(this man thus cannot be happy with sound but joyful thing is this hobby too). I didnot find true watchable staging in front of me but very impressed with new systems on staging, speed and musical flow. On the other hand each had some major lackings. Firstly depth in front area is an unavailable thing. Secondly resolution is a problem for most of them. Thirdly I never accidentaly saw a cdplayer playing better than a good turntable in terms of resolution too. Who am I talking this much confidently and strictly owning a system costing less than 5000$ second hand? Because these units are not year2000later stupid toys in a world that a cable costs 20.000$ and this 5000$ system easily beats many of them above 50k. Listen to a 1964 Seas alnico bookshelf and see what the speed is comparing to really wonderfull Son..fab.. Guarn.. costing over 10k having all properties of it. That sonus faber is a fantastic speaker but I bought my old monitor for 45$. A 20.000$ cable? An even 800$ well known cable didnot give depth and enogh detail as the cheapest cable I use(100euro). Am I stup.. to give 800$ for a not worty cable or why am I looked as stu.. in the new world's CustomerRelationManagement named rules? If rules are these, so a 5000$ system may easily beat 50k$ overly priced system. So price althogh important, not an issue for result even it is 200k adding the most imortant thing, the matching to total result. Matching to me is the most important thing of the system with carefully chosen wonderful products(aiming only quality and result for human beeing not for a wallet). I bet any person from any hiend store can get shocked with the sound in the living room aleady having seen many people and their same faces many times. Audiokarma exists and when todays products get 20 years old, will continue to exist with the worty ones of them, but seemingly in less amounts of products then.

I today tried another power cord. This is easily the best resolution from cdrom based system that I have ever heard and equal to very good vinyl resolution. Music as a first time escaped from system totally and I got stupid while turning the volume knob up-down being lost in my aquired perceive about relation between what I hear and the meaning of physical knob I hold. As Combork said, still under normal and will always be abnormal, of course logical. Nw I will try how my spare speaker cables behave as power cord, thick enogh, I must look at specs, some more little optimising without lacking by A-B-A-B-A-B test seing all in the system as a total tiny chemical creating as ifs in perception.

beer works well too..enjoy

wineslob:

Would you please describe the staging and music you experimented in the store in more detail.

-Which album/tracks created this

-What was the system you were listening to. I will ask and try it here in hi-end store.

-You also said it was not very often. I think I experimented this 3 times in my system, and still try to get one more of this tweaking everything. Like this? or that staging appeared somewhat say after every 15 seconds, always at each listening session?

mesut BALCI said:

wineslob:

Would you please describe the staging and music you experimented in the store in more detail.

-Which album/tracks created this

-What was the system you were listening to. I will ask and try it here in hi-end store.

-You also said it was not very often. I think I experimented this 3 times in my system, and still try to get one more of this tweaking everything. Like this? or that staging appeared somewhat say after every 15 seconds, always at each listening session?

Click to expand...

mesut, unfortuately it NEVER happened in a store, always in someones home setup. The first time was in the mid 1980's listening to "Jazz at the Pawnshop". The group/bar was in the room with us. Just amazing. Here is the major problem, while many recordings sound great, very few will give you the "holographic" effect. They just arent miked correctly, yes they may sound great, but they dont image.
Your system, what speakers are you using? It makes all the difference in the world.
The above system was all top of the line Dynaudio drivers in a TL (transmission line) cabinet. The guy who made them even modded the D28 tweeters to fit inside the crossbrace for the opening of the TL. All the electronics were Conrad Jhonson. We were listening to, in 1985 dollars, about a $30k+ system, hence my "price of admission" statement.
Getting your home system to "work" is a trial and error propsition. I found it with my room/Apogees but I dont like the looks of it. Who really wants their speakers 60" out into the room (from the rear wall) with a listening position 14 ft away from the speakers (Apogees are far field speakers)? But when I hit that spot, HOLY CRAP! Nora Jones was standing 6 ft away from me, the band was behind her all clearly defined. Genesis was in the room, and sounds were coming from beyond the wall of my room. Very, very haunting and, believe it or not, hard to get used to. When you are used to speakers firmly holding images in-between them and only slightly in front of the plane of the speakers, it takes some getting used to a fullsized, sonic "image" of someone standing right in front of you ( it's wierd when the singer is taller than you and seemingly standing there), and I mean the reach out and touch kind.
What you will most likely find in a store enviroment is it sounds like you are listening to a sonic "picture" and you are on the outside not in the picture. It takes knowing your room, making adjustments, ie: treatments, and just experimenting. The afore mentioned system took the owner months to get it "right". But all his efforts were worth it. My own system was the same trial and error, and with Apogees it's a real chore, but again, worth every minute spent.

I'll list this site yet again, http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

because the info here WORKS. Try it and see. :thmbsp:

P.S. The "musical endpoint"? see above. Bringing the live event into your home and not being able to tell it isnt. :yes:

I will buy the album "Jazz at the Pawnshop" to get a try. But I think It was vinyl version that gave that result.

I use metal woofer, metal dome tweter monitor audio pmc 703 ref speakers. They stayed for 1,5 years in my friend's home never making me interested, also having metalic sound, but when I listened to them with my ta-5650 vfet amp, they turned to something unbelievable. It was my first experience of shocking staging, so that night I suddenly brought them to my home looking for money around to be able to buy that costly speakers. I never than heard a staging with all orcestra that sprayed in front of me with all individual instruments anywhere. Perfect match for vfet5650. I still didnot get the same staging but got very close to that first experience lately. I also use coral flat 10 mk2 fullranges. I tried in very simple cabinet but lacked trebles, then I tested them in open baffles and didnot lack noticably on trebles also got seriously faster sound but of course colorful now. My monitor audios suited fantastically that are almost equal to fantastic crossoverless fullrange sound even giving much more depth and better staging than fullranges. Really fantastic. I also tested my amp with aer-mk1 fullaranges in TL cabinet. I got second charming sound here but stage was better again with monitor audios. I also have very old seas alnico bookshelfs, fastest woofer in history, almost no visible cone movement as in aer fullranges, still MAs were better. lucky..

ta-5650 vfet amp is one of the best amplifiers of late 70s, a spatial information server, so in fact I use one of the most pricy amplifier of that year. Yes you are right price matters in this aspect.

Cdrplayer is xa7es so it is one of the best from late 90s, musically wonderfull, focusing music only, lacks a bit on speed and bass control, needs to be more freshed(but power cord of amp compansated this noticably) on the other hand I think best vinyl is much better than best cdrom sonics.

Lately I tried coins under spikes and bass notes were added to picture at the back. Flooring was satan for staging. Now simply in hung state in the air, still need more realistic vibration, but midband and trebles on the staging are still the best for me. When I passed a level of solidity, eye movements, eye involvements starts, this is very funny and is a must for my joy now. To get this result I must work on cabinet position, and finetuning is really very hard, even by touching to corners of speakers as a rotating behaviour changes so much things on staging, this is my current headache needing stability.

I use the amp with its external adapter input which is a wonderfully short path in preamp. My sucesfull cabling did so much things too. Many new expensive cables didnot gave any depth, even 1/3 inner detail of these. I always aimed more from midband at all I looked for system, and now simply there is a hole in midband, perfect trebles, still only wonderfull bass. Last huge veil is removed by adding a power cord, it made music simply flow much faster, as fast as in bryston 7bst, real-time fast, "so speed related veil" is removed. Speed is really most important thing in music to me, real time fast, or always mechanical as coming from a system, simply a level you jump and see it or you stay below it never beware of what it is.

In my speaker setups, "in an empty room", I first place left speaker in the room so that I must hear most natural, most colorless sound that must come simply from driver itself not a combinational sound from walls, direct sound of cone itself, simply sound of driver only. I do the same for right one, then I match them to adjust staging. When listened selecting only one channel, sound is realy bad and plain but when swithed to stereo , all is a 3-d, I always prefered a location almost at the middle of room very far from back and side walls. I later put things aroudn so that this stage is never distorted but only echos still avaliable at the rest are removed. One time I got piano 3 meters behind speakers other instruments 1 meter right to it etc etc, excellent, but my wife strictly asked me for living room for human beings too.

I will look at cardas links, and try them too. The picture of my tiny room prior to marriage(and the next current one), my cheap bad speakers, and staging passing borders of room from such limiting things at the hand. These kind of placements really matter, and a good chance also on this or too much try to get result. I fell in love with acoustic properties of my friend's home. Put a thing and it sings.

Wineslob:

You and my friend are right, true watchable stage is not an impossible thing. Thank you for insisting on this confidently and making me try things to get better, I got it.

I want to encourage everyone for this. I am in shock. :nutz:

My pawnshop is on to road to be tested too, a FIM XRCD