Amplifiers all sound the same

So based on another thread here, I shared a belief I am starting to hold strongly - that amplifiers pretty much all sound the same. I have tried very hard to hear differences, but honestly I think I'm just trying to convince myself.

I did a comparison between a Marantz 2220b, 2215b and a Sansui 5050, and for kicks I threw in a H/K PM655 integrated. These amps basically sounded just like each other. The only things that seemed different were the tone controls - the loudness on the Sansui added a bit more bass and highs, the Marantz loudness was more mellow and enjoyable, H/K's bass contour was the best as it just added some low end and no highs. I also tried out an SMSL T-amplifier using the 2020 Tripath output. I played all of these on a pair of Infinity Crescendo CS-3008 speakers and honestly heard no difference.

I've also tried with headphones, my Sennheiser HD595's being the ones I use the most. The only time I heard a difference was using the headphone out on a Sony ES receiver - sounded very flat and plain. I tried it in an old Sherwood S-7900A receiver and by comparison it was boomy - way too boomy actually. All tone was flat on both. This is the only time I've really heard the difference, but every other comparison since I've heard nothing. I tried the headphone out on my Denon CDP and doing it back and forth with the H/K 655 - sounded so similar I don't think there was much of any difference.

This is kind of a bad revelation to me. Why bother buying better stereo gear if I don't hear a difference? I was looking at buying a more high end amplifier to replace my Denon AVR-4802 that I've used happily for several years, but I think I was doing it more so I could feel confident that it was definitely "high end" and there was no way I wasn't getting the best sound out if I had an expensive power amp instead. My speakers are very average in their demands - just an 8 ohm speaker, at around 90 db efficiency - playing in a small room where I have no real desire to crank it very loud hardly ever.

I try to listen for things like impact, sound stage, depth, dynamics, sibilance - I just don't hear it. The only amp that ever was audibly different was that same Sony ES receiver, it had a slight hiss present in the speakers which I think was more due to some defect in the amplifier. Preamps, CD players, DACs, power amps, CD players, I just don't hear it.

Now what seems like it does make a big difference - speakers. Speakers and subwoofers. I've never heard any, but I might imagine a large pair of Magnepan speakers or Quad electrostats might not get by on a cheap amplifier. Another interesting thing, there's another audiophile friend I have who owns more than one house full of stereo equipment. He has tons of high end audio equipment, but all he ever uses is lower priced gear. Stuff like NAD and Adcom. He has even told me he didn't really think there was much difference between one nice well made amplifier and another nice well made amplifier.

Am I alone on this? Is there anyone else who is willing to admit they don't hear a real difference in amplifiers? I've had others do blind tests on the same pair of speakers, lowering the volume and then matching the same volume level with another amplifier - and he's used some incredibly cheap BPC. I tried as hard as possible to objectively compare and just couldn't really discern a major difference between them. It seems like if you have an amplifier that's not inadequate for the speakers in the room they're in and at the level's they're played it that it doesn't really matter.

I guess it's good in a sense, because I already own more amps than I need so I don't even need to go buy anything new now. But it kind of sucks to have the idea of buying anything better seem no different. I guess like if you drove a new luxury car and found that it didn't drive any better than your mainstream sedan, but that you'd convince yourself it did if you bought it and kind of perpetuate the same idea for other people. I don't really see anyone ever mention this, and I wouldn't say I'm the kind of person who would enjoy just anything - I'm quite picky about speakers and can hear differences in all of them. No way could I use something like a soundbar instead of a pair of quality speakers. But I'll confess, I'm impressed with the Bose sound system in my car. It's not as good sounding as anything in the home, but it's better than my previous car which was a luxury car and had a premium sound system (OEM branded however). That little factory subwoofer is surprising for being as small as it is.

I often say that I can't hear a difference between many types of loudspeakers. However, with amplifiers, it's a different story. My Luxman sounds quite different from my Kenwoods, which sound different from my Fishers, which sound different from my tube amps, which sound different than my Pioneers, which sound different than my Tripath amp. Sorry, I have relatively poor hearing, I guess, but I can hear the differences in amps.

I have also noticed that some speakers sound better with some amps than they do with others. A few sound good no matter what I hook them up to.

I also have a low-end Fisher receiver from the tail-end of the dreaded BPC era, and let me tell you, whenever I start to think they're all the same again, I just hook that baby up. Ugh. Cures me of that right away.

try

comparing tube amps with solid state amps and get back to us.

Vistance said:

This is kind of a bad revelation to me. Why bother buying better stereo gear if I don't hear a difference?

Click to expand...

If in fact you cannot hear a difference between a $150.00 amp and a 15,000.00 dollar one then you are VERY LUCK

Just enjoy the

For the most part I can agree with you. there is some small differences with a little more bass (warm) or a little more treble from amp to amp, but for the most part all very similar. Pretty much why I put most of my money in my speakers and source equipment where I hear large differences.

Mechanical devices such as speakers will always have more instantly obvious differences in sound.
IME back in the day going from a nearly new Dynaco Stereo 120 to a HK Citation 12 bought new was an eye opener. One thing that my dealer told me I have found to hold true was to listen for an hour before making any judgements.
Differences between receivers of nearly identical specs and power I suspect would be more difficult to judge than large changes such as switching from solid state to tube amps. I have never compared multiple receivers of similar power so YMMV.

Frank Sol said:

If in fact you cannot hear a difference between a $150.00 amp and a 15,000.00 dollar one then you are VERY LUCK

Just enjoy the

Click to expand...

I realize that, I guess I just feel disappointed since it means I'm not really much of a participant in this hobby - other than I appreciate music and sound quality. My T-amp was $50 and to me didn't sound any different than the Marantz receivers, the Sansui or the H/K. Never compared it to my Denon or Integra AVRs, I mean I have no idea how much the cost on these is because of their build quality and how much is because they had features new at the time. My Denon was $2,500 new in '02 and the Integra was $2,600 in '09. I guess there are far worse amps out there to have than these, these don't have all the new DSP and such but they're both THX Ultra rated FWIW - not sure if that's just fluff or not but they haven't had a problem driving any speakers so maybe there's something to it?

I actually do have a Sansui 1000A I need to go through which is tube, I as well will be curious to hear what it sounds like.

Wigwam Jones said:

I often say that I can't hear a difference between many types of loudspeakers. However, with amplifiers, it's a different story.

Click to expand...

Wow, not sure how you don't hear it between speakers. An example from a time I listened to a pair of similar but different speakers - a KEF Reference (Model escapes me, something like 103/2 or 103/3 - bookshelf) and B&W DM602 bookshelf speakers. The KEF speakers were a bit softer in the highs due to their soft domed tweeter, the B&Ws were more crisp due to the metal domed tweeter. Some would say the B&Ws can be fatiguing and the KEFs are easy to listen to for a long time - I can agree based on your tastes, but I found the B&W's clarity to definitely be worth it to me and didn't seem fatiguing during my listening.

Surely you could easily hear a difference between a pair of standard 3-way tower speakers, a pair of Magnepans, and a pair of vintage Klipsch speakers with their classic horn tweeter?

davidb1 said:

Mechanical devices such as speakers will always have more instantly obvious differences in sound.
IME back in the day going from a nearly new Dynaco Stereo 120 to a HK Citation 12 bought new was an eye opener. One thing that my dealer told me I have found to hold true was to listen for an hour before making any judgements.
Differences between receivers of nearly identical specs and power I suspect would be more difficult to judge than large changes such as switching from solid state to tube amps. I have never compared multiple receivers of similar power so YMMV.

Click to expand...

Now that is something I haven't done, though I am still unsure how much difference I'd hear. I always do comparisons after say 5-10 minutes and then switch to the other. I would be curious to try this between my Sansui B-2101 (200 wpc) and a cheaper BPC receiver to see if the Sansui sounds noticeably better as one would imagine that it should based on its build.

I seriously doubt that I could hear differences among thirty year old $300 amplifiers as well.

Now, when you open up the field a bit, well then...

Some amps only go up to 3, while others go up to 11. That's one thing.

Vistance , I hope you understand I was being a little (lot) tongue-in-cheek

E-Stat said:

I seriously doubt that I could hear differences among thirty year old $300 amplifiers as well.

Now, when you open up the field a bit, well then...

Click to expand...

Comparing older unrestored equipment is something I have never done, even higher end products. At a guess, any one piece of older unrestored equipment in the chain would create a bottleneck. I am a placement/room first believer, followed by speakers, source, then amplification.

A lot of people can't tell the difference between power amps, preamps, CD players, lossless vs lossy, DACs, cables, etc..

Reasons are many.

All things being somewhat equal , I have not heard a difference either .

I think it just that your comparing more-or-less the same level gear.

A Bose 1801 sounds different than a Marantz 500 and those sound different than a Pioneer SPEC 1 / SPEC 2 which is different than CROWN DC-300A and that sounds different than SAE gear, Yamaha gear is completely different than Marantz and Pioneer.

A Marantz 2270 sounds a lot different than a 2275.

Cap coupled amps sound different than direct coupled.

30-40wpc sound different than 50-80wpc and there is lot of difference at 100-150wpc, etc...

You just haven't sampled enough gear.

AND, you need to open up the speaker sampling a lot too.
Using one set to check low power amps is not going to get it.

Vistance said:

I realize that, I guess I just feel disappointed since it means I'm not really much of a participant in this hobby - other than I appreciate music and sound quality.

Click to expand...

That is OK, you know. No need for disappointment. There are many ways for music to be a part of your life. I appreciate and demand a certain level of quality in audio, but playback systems aren't my hobby, either. It leaves room for a lot of other great things. It's all a matter of what interests you, since it's your life.

Otto

E-Stat said:

I seriously doubt that I could hear differences among thirty year old $300 amplifiers as well.

Now, when you open up the field a bit, well then...

Click to expand...

Good point. Especially if the amps are in original condition.

Vistance said:

........ I would be curious to try this between my Sansui B-2101 (200 wpc) and a cheaper BPC receiver to see if the Sansui sounds noticeably better as one would imagine that it should based on its build.

Click to expand...

Comparing these two amps should make it easier.

There are many types of differences between amps that are discernible. Once you have heard them and are aware, over time your hearing will gradually become more attuned to subtleties.

As a starting point, I would think that kick drum and bass guitar on the B-2101 vs typical BPC should be relatively easy to differentiate. Kick drum (snare also) should be much more authoritative on the B-2101. Bass line should be more alive and solid. Separation between kick drum and bass should be noticeably better on the Sansui whereas the BPC will be muddy and indistinct.

One of the biggest reasons would be the associated equipment you're using to test for differences.

A bit of an extreme example but, if you're using a cheap Japanese department store bought rack system from the 80's to discern differences in components or cabling, that system isn't resolving enough to tell the difference between much of anything.

blhagstrom said:

You just haven't sampled enough gear.

Click to expand...

The thing is though, people always talk about how different gear sounds and they're at the same level. Example: The difference between a Pioneer SX-1250 and a Sansui 9090. I am absolutely certain there are folks here who think these two sound different. But these amps are on the same level as each other, and it's in this type of comparison that I still would say I don't hear the difference.

I had a Marantz 170 DC, tried it in both DC and AC modes and I never heard a difference one way or the other. Even comparing wildly different wattages all I ever hear is that the higher wattage one doesn't need to be turned up very much before it's "too loud" for me compared to the lower wattage one. I've done the comparison between Marantz, Yamaha, and Sansui and I don't even get this idea of their characteristic sounds. The Yamaha natural sound doesn't sound any different than a Sansui or Marantz to me.

I've not been in this hobby for as long as some have since I'm young, but I've heard a fair number of amplifiers. I've had a Luxman L-480, Adcom GFA-5300, Adcom GFA-545 II, Marantz 170 DC/3250 Preamplifier, Pioneer M-25 power amplifier and C-21 preamplifier, a cheap Technics BPC receiver, that Sony ES receiver (Circa 2002), a few different Carver amplifiers, several different NADs (mostly newer), various vintage and newer Yamaha/Pioneer/Sansui gear. If this many amplifiers sound the same, I'm not sure what would make any amplifier more special than another considering how different a lot of these amps are from each other. There was some BPC stuff in there that other than looking and feeling cheap, sounded fine actually.

Why would I change the speakers too? That would remove the objectivity of the tests since a different amp and speaker wouldn't necessarily tell me as much as listening to the same speakers on two different amps. Besides, how else would I find the best amp for the Crescendo speakers if I don't use them as the reference for any given amplifier?

Most objective magazine reviewers came to the same conclusion that amplifiers when operated within their limits sound the same.

roger2 said:

Good point. Especially if the amps are in original condition.



Comparing these two amps should make it easier.

There are many types of differences between amps that are discernible. Once you have heard them and are aware, over time your hearing will gradually become more attuned to subtleties.

As a starting point, I would think that kick drum and bass guitar on the B-2101 vs typical BPC should be relatively easy to differentiate. Kick drum (snare also) should be much more authoritative on the B-2101. Bass line should be more alive and solid. Separation between kick drum and bass should be noticeably better on the Sansui whereas the BPC will be muddy and indistinct.

Click to expand...

I can picture the kind of music in my head, but I just can't think of any that is like this that has decent recording quality. Something from Dire Straits maybe? Any suggestions for sampling material that does this? I have assorted music, but it's better for voicing speakers like jazz and vocals. I have some stuff like Kraftwerk, but I think there is too much bass there to reliably test something. I need something with clear and separated bass, liked periodic drum hits.