Pro-Ject Debut III (Bad!)

I just bought a Pro-Ject Debut III in Glossy Piano Black, and set it up.

Well, I wish I would not have bought it, and it is going back for a refund.

I will tell you why!

Beware buyers of buying a turntable with a steel, or iron platter!

I have seen a thread or two on AK about some low level hum noise in between tracks. Well, that is the first thing I figured out with this "turntable".

It does not do it, until the supplied Ortofon OM5E gets near the platter!

In addition to the low hum, there was considerable ripple noise present if you cranked up the receiver.

Then, I proceded to install a new Denon DL-160 cartridge. I sat back with my remote, and prepared for a fine listening experience. After installing this cartridge, I did not notice the low level hum, or the ripple noise in the amp, and I set the needle at the begging of track 1, and kicked back.

The sound from the DL-106 was definately improved over the OM5E factory supplied, and it should be.

Well, everything was going well for about 40 seconds! Then all the sudden the needle took a ride accross my vinyl! I was like, what the He..!

I grabed a falshlight to look closely at what was going on. The cartridge body was flat down on the record! I first thought that the cantilever suspensoin had given up the goat! Turns out, the DL-106 has such strong maganets in it that the steel platter sucks the cartridge flat to the surface of your treasured LP, even with two more junk LPs stacked below it as a spacing experiment!

Needless to say, I'm POed, big time! Then I read in the Denon manual that it can not be used with a steel platter! "All else fails, read the instruction manual"!

Well, at least Denon is a reputable enought company to tell their customers about such things, and also to manufacture a quality poduct with such strong maganets, etc. That is more than I can say for Pro-Ject, and their el-cheapo steel platter strategy!

Entry level "Audiophile"? Yea, OK! "Audiophile" my arse!

Well, the cheapo junk is going back, and I've already ordered a new Denon DP-300F off of Ebay for $250, which is $80 less than this other piece of junk!

The Denon has better specs, and is fully automatic, cosmetically superior to the Debut, has a removeable headshell, which was a pain in the arse on the Debut trying to change cartridges, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, has an Aluminum platter!

Folks, non-magnetic platters are our friends, when it comes to turntables. Who in the heck at Pro-Ject ever decided to put a steel platter on? Duh...!

Sorry Pro-Ject, you're too stupid to earn my hard earned cash. I guess, you will continue to sell this crap TT to more unbeknownst victims, rather than putting a decent platter on your product. I guess, since it is supposed to be "Audiophile" grade, a decent platter would cost me at least another $200, right? Well, too bad, I'm buying the Denon for less, and it will be a better TT!

Signed,

Some Sucker Born in PA
(Not for long, Pro-Ject!)

You think the platter would or should be stainless steel (less magnetic)wouldn't you
If you think of machining & bit costs can steel be cheaper to produce as a platter anyway?

When I read the write up on this table I see where it meantions it having a steel platter. And if you say your Denon says not to use with a steel platter I would have to say this is your fault.

If you go to either the Pro-Ject or Sumiko site I see where it clearly states the table as having a sheet steel platter.

If you got hum two thoughts come to mind did you remove the transport screws and is it properly grounded?

Your stacking vinyl would greatly change the VTA did you adjust for this?

your condeming a product because you are trying to do something with it that it was not designed to do is silly.

I have a Pro-Ject 1.2 and a RM-5 both of which I just love. The built quality is very very good the sound quality worth every penny spent and then some.

BUT of course you are entitled to your opinion and it is just that your opinion.

I have been reading about Pro-Ject tables all over the web for almost 2 years now and never has this been mentioned before.

So I assume you are the variable in the problem.

IMHO

My Fault?

Mark,

I found out the hard way. Sorry, but I've never owned a TT with a steel platter.

Yea, the cartridge did say that in the literature after the thing went skating and i had find out what was foing on, but one would think that a TT is pretty useless if you can't use any cartridge with too strong a magnet!

How is the customer supposed to gage that, Mark?

Secondly, you should pay more attention to the part where I talked about all the noise it was generating in the factory cartridge. It was a piece of crap out of the box before I even tried to make it better.

Anyhow, I have the RA number, and it's history.

Yes, the platter is stamped out steel which is the cheapest possible. Machining would be more costly, but it makes no difference. Sorry, but steel, or iron is a bad material for a platter!

The cartridges are magnetic! Do the "math"!

I paid $250 for the Denon, the Debut was $329.99!

They could at least put some other material platter on it, but then there would be little difference from the next model up that they can cahrge another couple hundred or so.

I would have expected more from a company who builds multi-thousand dollar tables, and that is why I bought it. I put my trust in their brand name, and they figure some beginner wouldn't even notice the difference, until it was too late, and he goes to upgrade his cartridge, and finds out that he can only use certain ones.

I don't need to buy 10 cartridges to find which ones will work on a piece of junk, and which ones won't.

Anyone who is thinking about buying this thing will at least know more about it if they happen to do a search on AK for it. I'll have saved some other victims.

P.s.

Oh, and Mark,

I bought the cartridge after the turntable, so I was faced with does the cartridge go back (in which case most places will not take a return on any opened box cartridge because it could be damaged, or used for 5 years and swaped out wit the new one), OR do I return the TT!

Of course, if I wouldn't have figured this out within 15-30 days, returning the TT would have not been possible. Most returns have to be made within 15-30 for various vendors.

So, what would you have done, then?

Like I said before, Denon made a fine product without guesswork.
Pro-Ject sold me a decent arm, and the worst platter availabe that half works with magnetic noise affecting the factory cartridge, and likely any cartridge, and down right 100% physically incompatible with any cartridge that has a bit strong maganets in it (which ones would that be is anybody's guess).

P.s.s.

Mark,

Pro-Ject may make good stuff above the Debut, but sorry pal, I don't care who makes a TT with a steel platter, it's a stupid idea. It serves no purpose, but to be a cheap arse! There are better ways.

As far as the VTA goes, that is not an issue because as I also said the record stacking was only an experiment just to see how much distance would need to be added to even be able to have a chance of using the two components together. The low hum was with the factory OM5E, therefore the VTA was factory.

Yea, if you get the record up away from the platter far enough and shimmed the tone arm height up, then you could get it to work. Who the heck should be expected to do all this hacking to a new TT that was supposed to be a reputable product out of the box.

The low hum was not due to grounding. Even if it was, I've seen other threads on AK where people were complaining of this, and everyone figures it's a grounding problem. All I can say is that if it was a grounding problem, seems like the Debut must not have a decent grounding system either because others complained about the hum.

Oh, and YES, I removed the packing screws completely just like you are supposed to.

Sorry, that you are a Pro-ject owner and got a little irritated, but this table has nothing to do with yours of a higher model (without a steel platter).

Yes, it said it had a steel platter in the description, but I figured that would be good for the mass, and the inertia, but unfortunately, I guessed wrong on that, and found out that it is not the material to use.

It's funny, guys talk all this technical stuff about VTA, and grounding, but yet they reject the idea that magnetic cartridges pick up interference from a steel platter?

Go figure!

I think most will get what I'm saying.

Pro-Ject could easily remedy this by just finding a different platter to put on it!

Melted down, white metal, matchbox cars would work just fine.

A molded "Fisher Price" toy plastic platter with some lead weights inside the rim would be cheap as well, and have plenty of inertia, and would not interfere with the pickups!

:scratch2:

Other Hummers!

Here are some links to other places where they did have hum problems:

Folks trying to figure out what the problem was:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4684

This 1st reviewer claims motor hum, maybe so, transferred through the steel platter, maybe?. Also, bought more Pro-Ject gear, and claims of taking care of the problem after a motor upgrade, and a Pro-Ject Pre-Amp. Shouldn't have had the hum in the first place is the point. Let's see, that would put the total bill up to like near $500 now just to get the hum out of it!:
http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=13114

Another Debut hum article:
www.project-audio.com/inhalt/en/manual/manual_debutse.pdf

Another AK hum link:
www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=972067#post972067

This guy claims an ad-on cleared up his hum problem:
http://66.39.28.179/forums/showthread.php?t=72137

So, my question is what is with all these other folks noticing hum problems?

Maybe, it depends on which cartridge might be on it because my Denon was not affected by it, and I think because it was so strong magnetically that even the platter didn't affect it, plus it is only a 1.6-2.2mV MC output, and the Ortofon 5E is a 4mV out. Much more gain, and much weaker magnets.
More suceptable to interference.

Non-magnetic is inert to a magnetic cartridge.
Steel, or iron interacts totally with a magnet.

Bottom line is that it's just Physics 101.

You can't change the laws of Physics!

Outa Here!

:nerd:

Whoa!
A switch to decaf may be in order.

And I can't fit a full length sofa into my GTO either.

I've a Pro-Ject Xpression II, also with a steel platter, and I've never noticed a problem. Of course, I connected the ground wire to the pre-amp.

If would be nice to find an aftermarket replacement platter but for the price, I think I got a decent deal. The fact of life is that a non-magnetic platter costs more and is only offered on new TTs at higher price points.

BTW, I use a Sumiko Black Pearl cart.

rocdad said:

Whoa!
A switch to decaf may be in order.

Click to expand...

No ****.

wrcraw1965 said:

Here are some links to other places where they did have hum problems:

Folks trying to figure out what the problem was:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4684

In this thread the problem was tracked down to the physical setup of th turntables support rack etc. NOTHING to do with the platter

This 1st reviewer claims motor hum, maybe so, transferred through the steel platter, maybe?. Also, bought more Pro-Ject gear, and claims of taking care of the problem after a motor upgrade, and a Pro-Ject Pre-Amp. Shouldn't have had the hum in the first place is the point. Let's see, that would put the total bill up to like near $500 now just to get the hum out of it!:
http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=13114

AGAIN I see NOTHING to do with the platter

Another Debut hum article:
www.project-audio.com/inhalt/en/manual/manual_debutse.pdf

This link take one to the ProJect Debut III Manual the only mention I see to hum is the line that tells you to check your Earth ground AGAIN I see NOTHING to do with the platter

Another AK hum link:
www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=972067#post972067

This is the same as the Canuk Forum thread

This guy claims an ad-on cleared up his hum problem:
http://66.39.28.179/forums/showthread.php?t=72137

ADD on he changed out a preamp with no ground anybody knows you have to have a proper ground for a TT

So, my question is what is with all these other folks noticing hum problems?

Maybe, it depends on which cartridge might be on it because my Denon was not affected by it, and I think because it was so strong magnetically that even the platter didn't affect it, plus it is only a 1.6-2.2mV MC output, and the Ortofon 5E is a 4mV out. Much more gain, and much weaker magnets.
More suceptable to interference.

Non-magnetic is inert to a magnetic cartridge.
Steel, or iron interacts totally with a magnet.

Bottom line is that it's just Physics 101.

You can't change the laws of Physics!

Outa Here!

:nerd:

Click to expand...

From what I have read now that you have wasted my time is that like any turn table there are things that can cause Hum what I have not read from any of these references is anything about the Steel Platter being a problem.

The hum you heard with the Ortofon cart may be anyone of the various causes of hum from a problem with your ground to how you hooked up the cart leads. The problem with the Denon from what I read that you wrote completely your doing.

Sorry if I don't see it your way. And like the beach boys said so well "BE TRUE TO YOUR SCHOOL" and in this case I like and own and use Pro-Ject tables the only hum problem I have ever had has nothing to do with the platter. It's indicative of the unshielded Grado RED Cart I'm using on my 1.2.

NOT Projects fault.

wrcraw1965 said:

Mark,
I don't need to buy 10 cartridges to find which ones will work on a piece of junk, and which ones won't.

Click to expand...

There's no need to have to guess or experiment. This is a well known issue that has been around for probably at least 40 years. There are some very nice turntables around with steel platters (or sub-platters) going back at least to the Thorens TD-124.
The simple rule is don't use moving coil cartridges on a TT with a steel platter. Moving coil cartridges have much larger and stronger magnets than moving magnet or moving iron cartridges and will be strongly attracted to the steel platter.

The hum problem is another thing altogether and could have any number of possible causes, none of them having anything to do with the fact that the platter is made from steel.

Are there better materials to make platters out of? Almost certainly, but there isn't anything inherently wrong with steel platters.

Maybe So, but don't need the hassel

Sorry guys,

Maybe, I do need to switch to decaf, but I just don't need to deal with hum problems, and also be narrowed in my ability to use MM or MC cartridges, so back it went.

BTW - Yes, it was grounded to the amp.

Just wasn't expecting that much hassel from an entry level "Audiophile" component.

I guess different cartridges have different sensitivities like some folks on here, but I'm just going with the non-magnetic platter to be done with it.

I'm sure, I'll be happier with the new Denon TT, plus I only had to pay $250 for it, rather than $330, and it has an aluminum platter, so I guess someone has managed to manufacture a TT with an aluminum platter for $330, and under, and that also includes the cheapo $99-$149 TT out there as well.

What's bad about it is that it is one of those things that can be a hit or miss situation depending on the cartridge used, and "hit and miss" problems are the most irritating ones to have.

I mean, how many beer cans would it have taken to make a couple pound platter?

Yes, steel is likely a few less $, but probably not by much, and other manufacturers are able to do it as mentioned, so why even make a TT with such a nice, jeweled bearing tonearm, but have the other limitations?

Oh well, not me problem anymore!

its likely that the project turntable wasn't designed for use with a moving coil cartridge...budget decks tend to be aimed at the first time vinyl buyer who is likely to stick to a budget mm cartridge...
having just set one up for a friend...i don't think the arm is really up to the task of getting the best from a very good mid priced MM let alone a MC cartridge anyway...
it sounds decent...in the way the old dual cs 505/2 sounded decent...but its no rega p2 beater by a long shot in my humble opinion
certainly not in the arm and platter construction department...

Switched to Denon DP-300F

I sent back the Debut, and now am enjoying the Denon DP-300F!

I installed the Denon DL-160 High Output MC onto this new Denon model TT, and it's a nice combo.

Much better setup. :thmbsp:

The bearings in the Denon's arm may not be as exotic as the Debuts, but overall, the Denon is a more balanced package as an entry level TT, more attractive, and more convenient being fully automatic.

The removable head shell made life much easier, and the already angled, square head shell makes it much easier to install new cartridges. One can simply align the cartridge parallel to the head shell because the head shell is already at the proper angle.

The only remainder is to insure the stylus is the same distance from the front edge of the head shell to keep the same overhang.

Though the aluminum platter is lighter weight than the stamped steel platter on the Debut, the Denon includes a very high quality, heavy rubber mat that adds the additional weight to the platter, which is much nicer than the cheapo, "air filter" mat supplied with the debut.

Sorry, I don't go for the "out of round" cheap felt mats.

The Denon is a much quieter (lower noise floor) playing TT than the Debut. I could tell the difference almost immediately.

I am not imagining things, either.

The only real thing nicer about the Debut is that the solid plinth is coated MDF making it denser. The Denon however has a very nice gloss finish with a slight metal flake to it that makes seeing dust less noticeable, which I like better.

With the extra mechanics in the plinth to make the table full auto, it would take a great deal of machining to route out all the cavities needed for the more complex auto mechanism to fit into an MDF plinth, and that would also make it less dense anyhow (defeating the original purpose) by removing all that material, so the cast, glass filled, nylon type material on the Denon makes manufacturability a reality to place the additional buttons, and mechanics, etc. The plinth is still decent quality though not as high density as MDF, and the finish is just as fine as the Debut Piano Gloss.

The overall unit weight (mass) between the two is still comparable.

The feet are also more attractive in my opinion on the Denon. Larger, and wider. The platter is also a little recessed into the plinth, which is much more attractive than the Debut's platter hovering above the plinth like a UFO with a large gap underneath.

The gap on the Debut just never presented a professional, finished appearance to me. They should make the platter aluminum, and drop the skirt down on it closer to the plinth, and then the Pro-Ject Debut III would be a much nicer product to "debut" as the new, and improved, Debut IV! :ntwrthy:

If the platter would have been better, I would have kept the Debut, it's that simple!

The only other thing is the convenience of the removable head shell, which may be a tradeoff in arm resonance purity issues, but as long as it is a high quality joint, I doubt anyone would be able to tell any difference whatsoever, especially at this level of TTs, and I doubt it really matters even if you have a 200 lb. platform. Some features can be used as a gimmick, or a cover to save on manufacturing steps, and costs. A cheaper way out that does not prove to stand up as anything actually superior, when put to real scientific testing in an engineering lab. Anyone can believe what they want because who else has the resources, expertise to carry out such studies other than the manufacture's themselves, so they can always claim some "witchcraft" advantage if it becomes needed to cut costs.

It's more costly to have a joint there than to have a solid arm. More precision parts = "MO Mulah" $$$$!

A classic example of some "witchcraft" that goes on, and not to offend the folks with huge $100 monster cables plugged in everywhere with more spent on their cables, than on the rest of their system is an example of some "witchcraft" gone arise. Retailers out there selling gigantic diameter cords, and speaker wire. Even if you are not educated in the electronic sciences, which I am only enough to know something at least (BSEET), there is a cutoff point, a limit to where you're going to gain nothing by going BIGGER!

BIGGER does not necessarily mean anything if a cable physically is not matched, or exhibits certain characteristics to pass the frequencies you are trying to pass with unique attenuation characteristics, etc.

There is more to audio cables, and general wiring than just considering its resistance, and cross-sectional area. If you are an electrician installing 120V/60Hz in some building, yea, that is probably about as far as it goes. Passing radio frequencies through conductors are a different story. There can be much more to it than how "fat" everything is. Impedances, capacitances, reactiveness, resonances, distortions, attenuations, harmonics, noise, and more. "FATTER" can be worse than a cable that is thinner, and professionally engineered for its given purpose.

Try connecting some "FAT", home made LAN connection cable 100' long made out of lamp cord to install a computer network, rather than using an engineered cable specifically designed for it, and see how far you get. I doubt you'll have a working, or reliable system without meeting the proper minimum, high speed, conditions with home brewed conductors, etc.

Now getting back to the topic. In the same vein, some folks may push a solid arm to claim superior sonic performance, but I'd say the true motivation is to save money on manufacturing costs.

The same arm solid, or with a quality joint installed afterwords to create a removeable headshell with the same OL, and weight recalibrated, I'd challenge anyone to be able to reliably tell the difference, blindfolded. Let's get real!

Smaller, specialty companies can not afford the mass production parts involved in offering a quality, threaded, head shell/arm interface like a company the size of Denon, so this is also why you see more simplicity on a Debut in addition to the "simpler is better" audiophile philosophy as well.

I have learned by this experience that when it comes to lower cost TTs, I'd suggest a Denon, a Technics DD TT, or comparable vintage tables with all the conveniences for the average Joe Citizen, and go with a Rega, or Pro-Ject for those seeking sonic perfection, and willing to spend at least $500 and above to pursue it. Sonic perfection will not be obtained at the lower end of the spending spectrum anyhow. If you're not going to buy the next echelon models above the Debut, my experience told me not to buy a Pro-Ject then.

I'm sure the True Audiophile TTs for thousands of dollars will definitely outperform a Denon DP300P just because of the laws of physics if nothing else, when it comes to mass, and the bearings, and all that, but if you are in the sub-$500 TT market, my advice is to stay with the mass produced, traditional Japanese brands like the Technics, or the Denons.

"In the beginning" "God said, let the Audiophile companies fill the high end spectrum demand for sonic perfection". Lower level products where not what they began their companies based on, and therefore the offering of low priced TTs for these companies are just an afterthought for them, and it showed on the Pro-Ject Debut III. The Japanese are the most experienced in creating "cheap" TTs, and have decades of experience with millions sold. Leave that level to them, they have all the experience. If you want a Mack Truck TT, or a Rolls Royce, then buy the European, or American made $$$ models.

There is no such thing as an "economy" Rolls Royce, or a "small" Mack Truck! These are contradictions of terms. If you are looking for quality, and economy, then by the little Honda Civic, or the Toyota Corrolla! Same here, when it comes to turntables. :yes:

Have a nice day all!

I won't contiue to belabor this ( ), but it will be helpful information to those who are entering the vinyl arena for the first time.

:thmbsp: