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Stereo separation - tuner part of Sansui G901DB

Kale

Super Member
Hi,
Can you help me about one problem on tuner section of Sansui receiver model G901DB.
I don’t have stereo separation, and I suspect that uPC1173C doesn’t work properly. Because it is hard to find, can I replace it with HA1196? I have normal sound of any station but not in stereo.
Thank you!
Regards!

Kale
 
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uPC1173C

Can someone tell me where I can buy this uPC1173C?
Any information is welcome.

Regards!

Kale
 
Hi, Kale!
If you don't get a reply here, you may want to post in the Sansui forum. I think the Sansui forum has more traffic.
A very fine receiver!
 
bully said:
Hi, Kale!
If you don't get a reply here, you may want to post in the Sansui forum. I think the Sansui forum has more traffic.
A very fine receiver!
Yes it is very nice receiver! Here there are some pictures of it:
How it was
G901DB.jpg


Service 1
G901DB_service2.jpg


Service 2
G901DB_service3.jpg


Service 3
G901DB_service1.jpg


At night
at_night.jpg


Regards!

Kale
 
Kale said:
Hi,
Can you help me about one problem on tuner section of Sansui receiver model G901DB.
I don’t have stereo separation, and I suspect that uPC1173C doesn’t work properly. Because it is hard to find, can I replace it with HA1196? I have normal sound of any station but not in stereo.
Thank you!
Regards!

Kale


Kale,

You are getting sound with FM so the chip is likely working and could just be a slight tweak on the MPC IC's PLL VCO or ratio-detector requiring some adjustment.

If you don't have a clue where the adjustments are, a copy of the service manual is mandatory before you do any damage. Or you can post close-ups of the tuner section and I can highlight the locations.

BTW, the HA1196 is not pin-for-pin compatible with the UPC1173. The output stage is different.

Regards,

Joe
 
joemango said:
Kale,

You are getting sound with FM so the chip is likely working and could just be a slight tweak on the MPC IC's PLL VCO or ratio-detector requiring some adjustment.

If you don't have a clue where the adjustments are, a copy of the service manual is mandatory before you do any damage. Or you can post close-ups of the tuner section and I can highlight the locations.

BTW, the HA1196 is not pin-for-pin compatible with the UPC1173. The output stage is different.

Regards,

Joe

Thank you Joe for yours response!
Later I have found datasheet of HA1196 and I saw that it is different than upc1173. BTW I will not doing anything if I dont have Service Manual for that unit, so I have it. First what I have discovered it that Stereo LED is burned:scratch2:. So I think that driver stage in upc1173 for stereo lamp is burned too. On test point I dont have 19kHz:scratch2: so I think that the easier way to be sure is replace that upc1173, but it is hard to find.
BTW, I am doing complete recaping on that unit, and all capacitors on tuner board were replaced with brand name new one.
Here it is schematic for that part of tuner. I removed AM part and Front End part because I wish to get smaller picture for easier download.

pg23_G9000_tuner.jpg


BTW, I didnt have Tantal capacitor 0.22uF (pin 10 and 11 of upc1173) so I replace it with WIMA MKS (Polyester) capacitor. I think that is better than Tantal capacitor. What you think?

Regards!

Kale
 
Kale,

If you look closely at the schematic, the tuning + signal strength indicator and muting (IC07 HA1137) is independent of the actual FM detector/ratio detector (T02, T03 and associated components located after IC06 uPC1163 IF Amp/limiter).

It is totally possible that you get a decent signal and tuned signal on the meter but the FM detected composite signal is actually low hence no stereo signal.

I strongly suggest that you refrain from replacing electrolytics until you fix this problem. Too late for this advise based on your last reply. Likely culprit is the T02/03 ratio detector transformer out of tune which is normal with any component that is affected mechanically and electrically through temperature cycling, vibration, overhaul and electrolytic replacement.

Try adjusting the transformer slowly with a bamboo stick that is shaped to match the core if you don't have the plastic/ceramic alignment tool. Do not use a metal screw driver or you run the risk of cracking the ferrite core. The FM section is already screwed so adjusting the detector transformer without breaking it is a better proposition.

The detected audio is buffered at TR07 and TR08 -> anti-birdie filter -> pin 2 of uPC1173. Note that there is an error in the schematic. The 2x 3.3k resistors from IC08/uPC1173 pins 4 & 5 should be tied to the 13V DC rail and not to the input. The actual board circuit is correct of course.

Re:tantalum vs polyester. Just make sure the leads are short.

Joe
 
joemango said:
Kale,

If you look closely at the schematic.....

Joe, thank you for yours time and for very good tuner analysis:thmbsp: !
But, I can say some things, when I have got a receiver, it didnt has stereo reception on all FM stations.
Yes, I have plastic alignment tool by which I can make adjustments.
Thanks about mistake in schematic, I checked on tuner board, and pin 4 and 5 over resistors are connected to +13Volts:thmbsp: !
And finally, I used radial polyester 0.22uF WIMA capacitor (not axial), so leads are short as they should be.

I will try to adjust by Service Manual, and I will tell the results here.

thanks again!

Kale
 
I'm back!
But without any changes about FM stereo :no:
I have distortion meter, and I made some adjustments (please look at attachment), but I think that Manual has some mistake, look at part for 90MHz Dial Calibration, and what to adjust: Dial Pointer :scratch2:
106MHz Dial Calibration is OK in manual.
TO3 I adjusted close to 0 Volts, TO2 was OK (I didnt increase volume of sound because I dont wish to increase distortion too).

What next?

I have one simple FM spot generator (not stereo) which has two FM frequency (I adjusted one to 90 MHz and second to 106 MHz like it written in Service Manual) with two test sine wave (400Hz or 1kHz).

I still thinking that fault is in that uPC.:scratch2:

Kale
 

Attachments

  • adjustments_g9000.jpg
    adjustments_g9000.jpg
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Kale,

Try disconnecting the Rxxx 2.2kohm resistor temporarily near TR28 the 2SA733 emitter (not sure of the component designator since the posted pic is fuzzy and lacking in resolution) . This will diconnect the transistor switch that forces the MPX IC to mono. If that doesn't work, tweak the trimpot near IC08 uPC1173 pin 15, the PLL VCO free-run adjust. Hope you get stereo this time. Don't rely on the stereo LED if you think it is broken. Listen for the usual increase in hiss when stereo engages.

I think the schematic is screwed again in this area, the 2SA733 base is connected to the supply that is suppose to be for IC05. Args!@#$ It should come from IC07 RSSI pin. IC05 uPC577H supply connection appears to be wrong. Oh well :(

Of the things you've done, the most critical one is step #3, the dicriminator adjustments and the part for the IC07 HA1137 adjustment (step 1). This is to ensure that the stereo muting coincides with the center of the discriminator for the audio. The rest of the procedure outline in the page is for optimal sensitivity.

It's odd for the instruction to tell you to physically move the pointer to get the correct tracking at the lower end of the dial. There should be a couple of inductors in the front end that are adjustable for this purpose including the transformer for the LO.

While you are at it, if you have a signal generator that can drive a 19kHz 1vp-p signal sine or square wave, ac coupled this to uPC1173 pin 2 (the input) while disconnecting the signal from the ratio detector. This will test the 19kHz detector of the uPC1173 and confirm if the IC's pilot detect function is faulty. The trimpot for the PLL VCO may need some adjustment to force the stereo LED to turn on. Leave the previous mentioned 2.2k resistor disconnected when you are doing this.

Joe
 
Someone mentioned about adjusting the PLL oscillator pot, Have you tried it and still not getting 19K wave at test point? Do not touch the discriminator coil if you don't know what you are doing. If you have tried then it is the IC that is blown. MPX chips often went bad but still give you good mono sound!
 
joemango said:
Kale,

Try disconnecting the Rxxx 2.2kohm resistor temporarily near TR28 the 2SA733 emitter (not sure of the component designator since the posted pic is fuzzy and lacking in resolution) . This will diconnect the transistor switch that forces the MPX IC to mono. If that doesn't work, tweak the trimpot near IC08 uPC1173 pin 15, the PLL VCO free-run adjust. Hope you get stereo this time. Don't rely on the stereo LED if you think it is broken. Listen for the usual increase in hiss when stereo engages.
Joe, I keep this what you have written, and I will do this when I got a new upc1173, because I found it and already ordered it(thanks Steve Coy www.ceitron.com). So firs I will try to change it, and after that try to do what you suggested me. I have one problem on another Sansui G receiver, model G8000, but I will write about this problem on yours PM, if you dont mind?

joemango said:
I think the schematic is screwed again in this area, the 2SA733 base is connected to the supply that is suppose to be for IC05. Args!@#$ It should come from IC07 RSSI pin. IC05 uPC577H supply connection appears to be wrong. Oh well :(
Those mistakes are Trade Mark of Sansui Service Manuals. Someone should collect all discovered mistakes until now and collect them on one place:yes:

joemango said:
Of the things you've done, the most critical one is step #3, the dicriminator adjustments and the part for the IC07 HA1137 adjustment (step 1). This is to ensure that the stereo muting coincides with the center of the discriminator for the audio. The rest of the procedure outline in the page is for optimal sensitivity.
Here, what you mean critical step 3 adjustments; on adjusting T03 to 0 Volts or real step 3 Dial Calibrating?

joemango said:
It's odd for the instruction to tell you to physically move the pointer to get the correct tracking at the lower end of the dial. There should be a couple of inductors in the front end that are adjustable for this purpose including the transformer for the LO.
Yes, but for sure, that is another one mistake in that Service Manual, I need advice from someone who already adjusted one G9000/901. It must be one of T01, T02, T03 or T04 in Front End, but I dont know which:scratch2: . I dont wish to touch it if I am not sure!

joemango said:
While you are at it, if you have a signal generator that can drive a 19kHz 1vp-p signal sine or square wave, ac coupled this to uPC1173 pin 2 (the input) while disconnecting the signal from the ratio detector. This will test the 19kHz detector of the uPC1173 and confirm if the IC's pilot detect function is faulty. The trimpot for the PLL VCO may need some adjustment to force the stereo LED to turn on. Leave the previous mentioned 2.2k resistor disconnected when you are doing this.
But, I still dont have Audio Signal Generator (for one month I will get one very good Leader :yes:). That signal generator what I have, only has two FM spot frequency (one is adjusted to 90MHz and another to 106MHZ) on which frequency I can modulate audio sine wave 400Hz OR 1kHz as mono! And that is all! It is good for calibrating FM scale and some other simple test.


ModernClassic said:
Someone mentioned about adjusting the PLL oscillator pot, Have you tried it and still not getting 19K wave at test point? Do not touch the discriminator coil if you don't know what you are doing. If you have tried then it is the IC that is blown. MPX chips often went bad but still give you good mono sound!
Thank you for suggestion ModernClassic, and I decided to wait until I got one upc1173C. And after that we will know much more :)

Regards!

Kale
 
Kale,
T05 on the tuner adjusts the low end dial calibration. If you see no signal at all on the 19KHz test point, with an oscilloscope, at TP29, then the IC is probably bad. Even if the PLL is not locked you should get signal there, just the wrong frequency.
 
dr*audio said:
Kale,
T05 on the tuner adjusts the low end dial calibration. If you see no signal at all on the 19KHz test point, with an oscilloscope, at TP29, then the IC is probably bad.
Thanks Doc :thmbsp:! As I written before, I will wait with any adjustments until I got uPC1173C.

dr*audio said:
Even if the PLL is not locked you should get signal there, just the wrong frequency.
Yes, I know that, but I wasnt be sure, because I had one tu9900, which didnt has stereo reception too, and after I adjusted it to precisely 19kHz (was below 18kHz), it works great!
Thanks again for help!

Regards!

Kale
 
It works!

After I changed the uPC1173C (finally I got it), stereo separation is OK!
Thanks to everyone who replied in this thread!
Regards!

Kale!
 
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