Altec Lansing Milano...picked up today.
- Thread starter avguytx
- Start date
mhardy6647,
The Picture you posted is of the 846A Valencias(same as mine).The port is the gap which is on either side of the horn.
That gap had me perplexed when I first bought mine,I must admit. :yes: :scratch2:
avguytx,
What interests me about your Milanos,is that they have the 8 ohm drivers and not the 16 ohm drivers I expected to see. :scratch2:
They also look to have a little too much insulation material in them.
Anyone care to comment on the 8ohm drivers?
Which drivers do you have in your Valencias,mhardy?
The Picture you posted is of the 846A Valencias(same as mine).The port is the gap which is on either side of the horn.
That gap had me perplexed when I first bought mine,I must admit. :yes: :scratch2:
avguytx,
What interests me about your Milanos,is that they have the 8 ohm drivers and not the 16 ohm drivers I expected to see. :scratch2:
They also look to have a little too much insulation material in them.
Anyone care to comment on the 8ohm drivers?
Which drivers do you have in your Valencias,mhardy?
avguytx
Lunatic Member
Maybe it is. I didn't give it the "knuckle rap" so I was going off of looks alone. It just had that "stamped" look to it!
Hell, I've been wrong many a time!
avguytx
Lunatic Member
Should I pop the backs off and put a DMM on the independent drivers and see? Collectively at the terminals, one reads right at 8-ohms and the other right at 9-ohms.
I know one thing. I am changing out those crappy little speaker connections today with some banana style jacks! :yes:
Somebody should make an alphabetical listing of the various Altec models, their size, and what's in them. I once wrote a haiku about Malibu, Milano, Madrid, Santana, Santiago, Seville, Valencia, Flamenco and Murano. Wasn't very helpful, technically, tho.
What's interesting is that, while you weren't excited by 846B Valencias, you have a different initial impression regarding these, when they are very much the same speaker. I don't know the difference between N-800K and N-800-8K crossovers, but some research will likely track that down. I can't read what model HF driver is in these in the pic. Could you clarifiy that, please?
Here, again, is an obvious attempt by a prior owner to tame an Altec home version of VOTT. While some may like the stock "Altec sound," the general consensus would appear to be that there are issues to address. I don't believe that adding additional L-Pad attenuation to the HF and stuffing the cabinet with damping are any more adequate to the purpose than scabbing in JBL dome or EV T-35 tweeters, nor would I go on a maddening quest for some reciprocally defective amplification system to render them listenable by contemporary standards, when there are relatively inexpensive upgrade approaches available.
Do they suck? Well, no, but even Altec acknowledged the deficiencies inherent in these early two-way designs for home use, and employed improved crossovers and drivers in subsequent iterations to improve them. For some, that was the end of vintage sound, of course; for the mainstream, however, it was "Good riddance...."
What's interesting is that, while you weren't excited by 846B Valencias, you have a different initial impression regarding these, when they are very much the same speaker. I don't know the difference between N-800K and N-800-8K crossovers, but some research will likely track that down. I can't read what model HF driver is in these in the pic. Could you clarifiy that, please?
Here, again, is an obvious attempt by a prior owner to tame an Altec home version of VOTT. While some may like the stock "Altec sound," the general consensus would appear to be that there are issues to address. I don't believe that adding additional L-Pad attenuation to the HF and stuffing the cabinet with damping are any more adequate to the purpose than scabbing in JBL dome or EV T-35 tweeters, nor would I go on a maddening quest for some reciprocally defective amplification system to render them listenable by contemporary standards, when there are relatively inexpensive upgrade approaches available.
Do they suck? Well, no, but even Altec acknowledged the deficiencies inherent in these early two-way designs for home use, and employed improved crossovers and drivers in subsequent iterations to improve them. For some, that was the end of vintage sound, of course; for the mainstream, however, it was "Good riddance...."
mhardy6647
Lunatic Member
a SWAG: one is 16 ohm, the other 8?
You disconnected the leads to make those measurements, yes?
avguytx
Lunatic Member
Yes. Those measurements were taken with the speakers leads from the amp disconnected. I haven't checked them on each driver but I think I will do that here in the next little bit for s**ts and giggles.
The horns are the 806-8A's.
Yeah, I wasn't really thrilled with the Valencia's and it's literally a night and day difference in the upper end response in these. It HAD to be that something was wrong with the 806-8A's in the Valencias I had. That and I just didn't want to go thru the ordeal of getting other diaphragms for them at that time, etc, even though they were in great shape. But, untouched, these sound better. But that's just me getting to compare from the only 2 sets I have had and I do realize they were darn near the same drivers/setup. :yes:
Did I mention I like these? I still have them playing in the opposite room that I am typing from! Once in awhile, I have to stop in there and sit for a moment or two.
The horns are the 806-8A's.
Yeah, I wasn't really thrilled with the Valencia's and it's literally a night and day difference in the upper end response in these. It HAD to be that something was wrong with the 806-8A's in the Valencias I had. That and I just didn't want to go thru the ordeal of getting other diaphragms for them at that time, etc, even though they were in great shape. But, untouched, these sound better. But that's just me getting to compare from the only 2 sets I have had and I do realize they were darn near the same drivers/setup. :yes:
Did I mention I like these? I still have them playing in the opposite room that I am typing from! Once in awhile, I have to stop in there and sit for a moment or two.
AV---I think your speakers were modified somewhere along the line. They have more stuffing than I ever saw inside an Altec vented box and the resistors on the compression driver were probably added to flatten out the mids and thus extend the high end response, Altec users have been doing that for years.
That little EQ network may well be the reason you like these speakers better than the Valencias you had earlier.
The woofers have cast frames, it's just that those frames weren't deliberately styled to look "cast" as modern ones often are.
That little EQ network may well be the reason you like these speakers better than the Valencias you had earlier.
The woofers have cast frames, it's just that those frames weren't deliberately styled to look "cast" as modern ones often are.
avguytx
Lunatic Member
You know, I was thinking those looked like an add on because of the wire nuts that were connecting them to the horns. What happens if the resistors are taken off? What is the effect? A rise in the midrange?
And on the same note, would I benefit from removing some of the stuffing? Doesn't that limit low end response to an extent? Sorry for all the questions, Tom, but I do appreciate the input!
Oh, what amp do you typically run to your 19's?
And on the same note, would I benefit from removing some of the stuffing? Doesn't that limit low end response to an extent? Sorry for all the questions, Tom, but I do appreciate the input!
Oh, what amp do you typically run to your 19's?
AV---Yeah, I'd expect that if you removed the network the mids would be more prominent and the highs less so, that being if the network is doing as I think.
I doubt that all that stuffing is what Altec intended, removal would probably change the sound and probably for the better. But I'm just a'guessin' here ya understand.
I run my 19s in my HT with a Denon model something-or-other HT receiver. I run my Heath-Altec AS-21s with a Fisher 500B tube receiver, my Boleros with a Jolida tube integrated amp and my 605s are bi-amped with a Teac T-amp on the treble and a big-hog QSC SS pro-sound amp on the woofers. Wonder-capped Dynaco PAS-3 preamp and some active crossover Paul C is keen on, I forget the name.
So I cover several bases---tubes, conventional SS and chip-amps.
I doubt that all that stuffing is what Altec intended, removal would probably change the sound and probably for the better. But I'm just a'guessin' here ya understand.
I run my 19s in my HT with a Denon model something-or-other HT receiver. I run my Heath-Altec AS-21s with a Fisher 500B tube receiver, my Boleros with a Jolida tube integrated amp and my 605s are bi-amped with a Teac T-amp on the treble and a big-hog QSC SS pro-sound amp on the woofers. Wonder-capped Dynaco PAS-3 preamp and some active crossover Paul C is keen on, I forget the name.
So I cover several bases---tubes, conventional SS and chip-amps.
I'm seeing 3 Ohms in series and (presumed) 15 Ohms in parallel, comprising 3.71 dB of attenuation, no EQ.
N-800K schematic below. Same as Valencia 846B N-800-8K, apparently. There is some compensation built into it, but it's the same for both systems.
Referenced system 871A is "Milano," comprising 806-8A compression driver using 21597 diaphragm on 811B horn, with 416-8Z woofer, all identical to 846B Valencia. N-800-8K would appear to be the open chassis version of the identical crossover.
I certainly do not see much point in adding additional fixed attenuation to the HF other than to reduce the output at the variable L-Pad minimum attenuation setting....
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bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
I think you'll find some distinct differences between the N-800K and N-800-8K(846B) networks. The N-800K uses a potentiometer and 1 or maybe more fixed resistors instead of an L-pad as well as inductors that are smaller and likely wound with smaller guage wire than the N-800-8K(846B), the N-800K is also potted in a big ole nasty mess o tar.
This is something that's never really made terribly clear, but in the popularly referenced catalog from 1971 it says the Milano is 8 ohms while the valencia and flamenco say 8/16 ohms.
From experience i know of Valencia(846A) and Flamenco used(most of em anyway) the N-800F with a 16 ohm HF load and 8 ohm LF load, my 9844's use these same networks with the same respective loads.
Experience has also shown that the specs/parameters of Altec crossovers could change while the model numbers remained the same, nothing is carved in stone.
avguytx
Lunatic Member
I remember reading that those N800K crossovers were basically impossible to change parts in short of rebuilding a complete new one. Are there benefits to updating the crossover and using something new?
That little resistor setup in them just "almost" looks stock since both sides are done the same way with that little board on the metal plate. Who knows. I guess if someone did add them in the past, they were pretty anal about making it look good sans the wire nuts!
That little resistor setup in them just "almost" looks stock since both sides are done the same way with that little board on the metal plate. Who knows. I guess if someone did add them in the past, they were pretty anal about making it look good sans the wire nuts!
According to the "Official" reference, both 8-16 "System Ohms" 846A Valencia and 848A Flamenco used 16-Ohm 416-16Z (15") LF and N-800F crossovers.
Different variants of 846B Valencia used N-800K versus N-800-8K crossovers, all 8 Ohms.
The 16-Ohm N-800F crossovers in 846A and 848A used a pot and resistors, but the N-800K schematic above shows a true L-Pad. From what I see in the pic, they used the same metal can package, though, so I agree that is suspect.
FWIW, it's the 1975 Altec reference at Lansing Heritage where I'm getting this info:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/reference/1975-driver.htm
Different variants of 846B Valencia used N-800K versus N-800-8K crossovers, all 8 Ohms.
The 16-Ohm N-800F crossovers in 846A and 848A used a pot and resistors, but the N-800K schematic above shows a true L-Pad. From what I see in the pic, they used the same metal can package, though, so I agree that is suspect.
FWIW, it's the 1975 Altec reference at Lansing Heritage where I'm getting this info:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/reference/1975-driver.htm
The major benefits are to be derived from two upgrade paths known to me:
1) Change the HF driver to 802-8G with tangerine phase plug using the standard Altec diaphragm but a revised back cap (not a big deal to do,) which will produce extended high frequency response, plus Model 19's N1201-8A crossover, which provides the requisite high-frequency compensation circuitry to make that actually happen, or,
2) Change the HF driver to BMS 4550/4552nd and use the stock crossover, or a newly built copy thereof, plus a simple compensation circuit as documented in the Valencia upgrade thread here on AK and at LHF. AK member Steve O is also finalizing his refinement of that work which may be available soon as an improved alternative. That's where I'd be going with these if I owned them:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1141355&#post11413558
If you just want them to perform as originally manufactured, you can clone the crossovers according to the schematic in post #34, above, using new components, for under $100 the pair, it appears.... :yes: