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1229Q vs 1229 vs 1219 vs 1019- Follow up to Seth's prior post

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Normo

Well-Known Member
I picked up a sort of working 1229Q today for 8$ so I am happy about that. I now have a 1229Q , a 1229, a 1219, 4-1019's, a 1246, a 1257, and 2 505-2 duals. Yes I am crazy and yes all need some work. As to the 12 series.
Seth had early posted that he felt the 1219 was perhaps the better of the three tables. If all were completely tweaked, platter damped, same cartridge etc, which would be the quietest with best sound. Thanks Norm
 
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There is so much to discuss.

I'm going to limit it to the 1219, 1229 and 1229Q. I feel that of all of the tables you listed, these are the best built and in the highest demand. I know many favor the 1019 - I'll let those others talk about that table. To me, the arm mass is way too high for, say, a Shure V15 Type III. Just me.

OK questions...

1. Best build quality
2. Most popular features
3. Most durable
4. Best sound


1. The 1219. Be careful here. Not the early ones - I don't like them at all - they are a bear to service. Dual made a real design change at S/N 141,000. That series, until S/N 420,000 is the best. The reason? Later ones had plastic control levers. You've seen the snapped levers on ebay. The earlier ones had metal levers. The mid run was built like a tank.

2. Probably the 1229/1229Q. Everyone wanted the built in neon strobe. But, once a Dual's speed is on, you rarely have to adjust it.

3. Properly serviced, it's close, but I give the nod to the 1229Q. Many
1229's has the KS-3 power supply, and the mounting pins inside are prone to failure.

4. That's purely subjective. I spin a 701 and a 1219 and equally enjoy them both.

Hope this helps,
Bill
 
Bill I appreciate your response. I'm hoping Seth will answer too. Any suggestions on best cartridge fit for the 1229Q vs the 1229 and 1219?
And, while I am picking your brain. You have seen some of the beautiful work some fellows have done on new plinths for their duals. Would all of the 12**series benefit by having a higher mass plinth and being coupled to it? thanks again. Norm
 
Cart: Shure V-15 Type III. That's pretry much it. But, I have a Denon 110 on my 1219 - and like it.

Check my recent posts for a custom curly maple lumber base.

Bill
 
Have a 1229 and a 1009

Got my 1229 in 1999. Came with a Shure V15 type III. After a good cleaning and lubricating the motor it has worked flawlessly. Was surprised it had the Shure on it.Thought the arm was too neavy for that cart. Found out many were sold that way. Its good table. Havent worked on it since.

My shop system has an early 1009. Igs more a changer than a turntable. No cue or antiskate. Built extremely well. Have United Audios early deco style pith on it with dust cover. I track at a gram and a half with a Shure M55. Have always liiked that cart. While many would die rather than use something this old and primitvie it sounds good to my ears

Thats a nice stash you have there. Dont have room for that many. I like everything hooked up. My old place had 3 sytems with two turntables. Got up to 7 Duals. Miss them. All went to good homes.

Dont know much about the others but the 1229 is a gem.

Eric:music:
 
The Dual 1219 that blessed me several weeks ago, at a garage sale, is now my #1 turntable. It has metal levers and the improved mechanism.
The hell with the strobe. They usually peel away from the platter anyway. Those that do not, more often than not, are printed off-center.

This Dual is quieter than the 1229 or 'Q'. Couldn't understand why, untill Bill pointed out that the platter w/o a strobe has reinforcing ribs.

This leaves the arm. While the 'Q' can track ANYTHING, the heavier arm seems to sound better. Imaging and bass are superior. Perhaps, as the earlier platter is more rigid, so is the earlier arm. Also, have you ever seen a more beautiful tonearm?

I hate my Dual 701. Very quiet but sounds pretty aweful in my opinion, when compared to these rim-drives.

Cartridges?

I always thought that the V15-III was tops, until hearing and eventually purchasing, a Shure ML-140HE [ML-120HE is also excellent]. Am now playing a copy of Sgt. Pepper. Have not played it for years. The details that this 'table/cartridge bring out are amazing. I can practically see the performance. Never had this with my Dual 1229Q/Shure V15-III or Stanton 681EEE or Shure M91ED. I understand that my Shure of choice went for a pretty penny in 1982, but have yet to find out the actual price.

I have heard the AT440MLa on a Dual 1219, and it is a sonic bargain at under $90. It got installed onto a Dual 1219 that I repaired for a customer. And, I have listened to Joe's [Luckyman] V-15III with JICO stylus, on his Dual 1219, plugged into his system. Sounds superior to the OEM stylus.

Edit:

I just pulled the platter. Turns out that I have yet to damp the thing. This shows how wonderful the Dual 1219 really is.

Seth
Forever Analog and Covered In Parrot Poop
 
Normo said:
Bill I appreciate your response. I'm hoping Seth will answer too. Any suggestions on best cartridge fit for the 1229Q vs the 1229 and 1219?
And, while I am picking your brain. You have seen some of the beautiful work some fellows have done on new plinths for their duals. Would all of the 12**series benefit by having a higher mass plinth and being coupled to it? thanks again. Norm
Click to expand...

As to the cartridge? I absolutely love my Shure V15 Type III/ with Jico SAS
stylus.

As to the higher mass plinth? I'll let you know in a few days when I get
my new base featured in the recent thread by Divotdog (Mel) !:banana:
 
I am running 1219 and 2 721's daily. I did not try a lot of cartridges on the 1219. From the cartridges I tried I think V15 Type III is a fine and expensive choice. However it also performed fine with a Shure 97.

By the way, while 1219 is an excelent player for the money, I think that 721's and most probably 701's are way quiter and images a lot better. To my eyes 1219 is more reliable, far more sexy and muscular (it looks like I am comparing myself to my girlfriends exboyfriend)


Mertol
 
I'm keeping a very close eye on this thread. Seth, Bill, thanks for your great insight; if anyone would know weak points, it's you two.
I can't afford a "new" TT right now, but who knows about the future? Thanks for asking your questions, Normo.
Tom
 
Not trying to hijack the thread, but, Mertol, I'm still scratching my head on the 721. I've been through 3 in the last 2 weeks, and picked up another one in trade. One feature I like is the variable speed cueing descent. Very impressive. Also, the vertical height adjuster will not break the pins that retain the gimbal in place, like the 1219, 1229, and (especially) the 1249 are capable of doing. But, on full up for stacking records, the tonearm will not descend all of the way - true on all of them. You could get in there with a Dremel and fix that, but I'm still studying that conditions. Surely those Black Forest engineers would not send it out that way. You can back off the height just a touch, and it's fine. There's got to be something going on with the stops.

Another thing - and this is true for the 701 as well. Inside the metal power "box" is a capacitor. They fail. When they do, they'll blow the fuse and it's done. Replacing the fuse won't fix it. You MUST replace that cap.
It's the same cap that's in the plastic power box on some of the 1229's (KS-3's) and all of the 1229Q's (see - I brought it back to topic!!). It's there on these to supress that "pop" on start up. Standard service procedure - always replace that cap!!

That same cap is in the 1225, 1226, 1228, 1249, 601, and others, I'm sure.
 
Whoops - typo. The problem with the caps lies within the KS-4 power supply, not KS-3. The KS-3 is just junk, but with a good cap. The KS-4 has a .00062 microfarad (I think, if I remember correctly) film cap.
 
NoTransistors said:
The Dual 1219 that blessed me several weeks ago, at a garage sale, is now my #1 turntable. It has metal levers and the improved mechanism.
The hell with the strobe. They usually peel away from the platter anyway. Those that do not, more often than not, are printed off-center.

This Dual is quieter than the 1229 or 'Q'. Couldn't understand why, untill Bill pointed out that the platter w/o a strobe has reinforcing ribs.
Click to expand...

I always thought that speed on the belt drives was more stable than the 1229. One day looking under the platter I realized that the fluctuations I was seeing on the 1229 were actually distortions on the strobe sticker under the platter and not real. The strobe markings on the 510, 1249, 721 and 704 were cast into the platter and way more precise.

Fernando
 
Whenever I set up a table, I use a florescent light and the metal strobe disc that came with the 1219 - strobe or no.
 
Another difference from earlier to later Duals was the platter composition. 1219 and 1229s used zinc castings. At some point Dual converted to cast aluminum. I don't know about the 701 but by the time the 721s came around they were using aluminum.

Fernando
 
Bill,

You need to add that most newer fluorescents have a solid-state ballast, which does not reflect the line frequency. The ballast needs to be the transformer-type.

I have a plastic under-platter strobe ring made for Thorens. I figure that if I can reduce the size slightly, using a photo-copier at Staples, it will fit. Might be better than the present crappy one, as I am starting out with a non-Dual printing. The 1228, 1229, 1229Q, 701, and possibly a few others, have a paper strobe.

And, the 701 has a zinc platter. The platter was redesigned, to reduce warps. Easy to see the difference when placed side-by-side. Same part # though.
Also, I have seen lots of 1229 and 'Q' platters warped, even when new.
Warped 1219 platters are not as common. Thorens waited before packing their turntables. Warps in their zinc-cast platters is rarely seen.
Better product. Bigger bucks.

Seth
Forever Analog and Covered In Parrot Poop
 
The others that come to mind with the paper strobes are the 1249 and 601. I actually like the cast aluminum platter that came with the early 721 and 704, as well as the 510, and 1245 that had the narrow low edge srobe castings. Later, Dual introduced another cast platter with later production 721s and 704s that had a full side strobe. This was shared with the 600 and 500 series as well as the 1246. Having that platter in a 504 and 1246, I think that it had more ringing than the earlier version. Later ULM versions of the 500 and 600 series had cheaper stamped platters. The 714 and 731 though had an interesting looking cast platter. A German guy with a website that calls himself "Dual Fred" thinks these may have been the best Duals. They advertised quartz PLL regulation that was absent from earlier direct drives. There is not much feedback on these.

Fernando
 
A polite correction:

The 1249 has the strobe "teeth" on the bottom edge of the platter, like the 721.

The 601 was it's own beast when it came to the strobe markings. They are underneath like the paper ones, but cast into the bottom of the platter. The raised portions that are polished aluminum, and the field is painted flat black - just the opposite of the paper strobe. Works great on 33, but not so much on 45.
 
You are of course right about the 1249. I did not know that about the 601. It peaks my curiosity about that table even more. With an SM-860 motor, it could be the ultimate Dual for me. I do like the early belts.

Fernando
 
I think that the 601 is the best sounding full size Dual belt drive. It absolutely needs the SM-860 motor (as does the 1249). Also, I feel that the 601 has the best styling of any of them - and does NOT have that adjustable height tonearm - just a headache waiting to happen, unless it's been serviced, of course!!

For the smaller chassis? Hard to beat the 1218.
 
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