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Cartridge Alignment - Protractor vs. Overhang Guage

thesauce

thesauce

Active Member
Hey fellow vinyl heads, I have a question about aligning your cartridge. I have a overhang guage and bought a protractor from turntablebasics.com (the mirror one). My cart was originally aligned using the overhang guage for the Yamaha table I have. When I used the protractor to check the setup, it was way off (well, half way down the headshell). I had to move the cartridge all the way to the front of the headshell. This is a straight arm on a Yamaha P-750 and a Denon DL160. I'm wondering which one is correct? I'm assuming the protractor is... I think the higher frequencies may be slightly more detailed now, but it's hard to tell without a back to back comparison. Most importantly I want to make sure my needle is set up correctly so it doesn't wear badly.

Is this common for the overhang guage to be so far off? Also, it is normal for a cart to need to slide almost all the way to the end of the headshell to be in alignment?

I appreciate any advice.

Ben
 
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Ben, eventually I will be posting a thread on cartridge alignment, but in the meantime what you need to know is that it is concerned with the fact that there are two points in the swing of the tonearm over a record where the distortion is zero. These are called the null points. Different individuals experimented to see which two points produced the best overall sound and best compromise on overall distortion. One was Stevenson. His points were used by virtually all the Japanese manufacturers including Yamaha. Another was Baerwald. His points are used by most current turntables and are the points used in almost all available protractors today.

Your turntable and overhang gauge were based on Stevenson geometry. When you try to impose Baerwald (turntablebasics protractor) the cartridge will move forward several millimeters and should rotate inward. If you have room in the headshell and prefer the sound you can use it. If you don't have enough room, go back to using the overhang gauge. Using the gauge the cartridge should be square with the headshell.
 
G'day all, arhh...cartridge alignment! This is one thing that I've never really been too sure of, although just recently I tried using the protractor produced by the 'Enjoy the Music' people with good success.

In the past using conventional two point card gauges I've never been too sure of things! The 'ETM' gauge seems totally unambiguous, and I used it on both my Dual ULM tonearm and also two more conventional 'S' shaped arms.

Some people maintain that this gauge has limitations however I found it to work fine in any arm I tried it on, and listening sounds fine. That's my 10 cents worth! Regards, catman.
 
If you have the correct overhang gauge for your turntable, by all means use it! Cart square in the headshell and stylus point aligned with the proper overhang... you can just ignore all the protractors and gauges.

In my experience, the overhang is much easier to set up and get accurate. You can fiddle with a protractor if you want, but it is unnecessary in your case.
 
hakaplan said:
Ben, eventually I will be posting a thread on cartridge alignment, but in the meantime what you need to know is that it is concerned with the fact that there are two points in the swing of the tonearm over a record where the distortion is zero. These are called the null points. Different individuals experimented to see which two points produced the best overall sound and best compromise on overall distortion. One was Stevenson. His points were used by virtually all the Japanese manufacturers including Yamaha. Another was Baerwald. His points are used by most current turntables and are the points used in almost all available protractors today.

Your turntable and overhang gauge were based on Stevenson geometry. When you try to impose Baerwald (turntablebasics protractor) the cartridge will move forward several millimeters and should rotate inward. If you have room in the headshell and prefer the sound you can use it. If you don't have enough room, go back to using the overhang gauge. Using the gauge the cartridge should be square with the headshell.
Click to expand...

Thanks Howard, that makes total sense now. It sounds great where it is, but it also sounded great where it was! Haha... I just want to make sure it's set up right so my precious records are not hurt or my needle. I guess it really doesn't matter. This gets me thinking... the different methods "Stevenson and Baerwald"... they must just have the two different null points in different areas of the record (I assume). So in theory, wouldn't it not really matter where you put it in the headshell as long as it's at the right angle? Wouldn't this just move the two null points to a different area on the record? If there are only two points where the cartridge is totally aligned with the groove, most the time you are listening to it at least partially off, so why bother even worrying about it?? Hmmm... Just thinking out loud.

A little off topic, but I also got a tracking force guage. Found out that my Yamaha is DEAD ON by using the arm's guage, so it really wasn't necessary other than now I know my TT works right. I'm starting to think a lot of this stuff is overkill, but who knows. I'll go play some more, it's fun anyway! The more I play with other turntables, the more I like my Yamaha. Everything just works as it should and feels like a well built machine. I wonder why so many people talk about the Technics all the time and I don't hear much about the Yamaha's. I have a Technics and it's nice, but I wouldn't trade it for this one!

Thanks again, I had a feeling you would be the one to answer my question! :D
 
catman said:
G'day all, arhh...cartridge alignment! This is one thing that I've never really been too sure of, although just recently I tried using the protractor produced by the 'Enjoy the Music' people with good success.

In the past using conventional two point card gauges I've never been too sure of things! The 'ETM' gauge seems totally unambiguous, and I used it on both my Dual ULM tonearm and also two more conventional 'S' shaped arms.

Some people maintain that this gauge has limitations however I found it to work fine in any arm I tried it on, and listening sounds fine. That's my 10 cents worth! Regards, catman.
Click to expand...

Is that the one you can print out? I tried one of those before buying this one and I just had a hard time with punching a hole in the right place after printing it... I felt like the slightest mistake would throw the whole thing off, so I could either buy a hole punch or a protractor and forget about it! :)
 
ozmoid said:
If you have the correct overhang gauge for your turntable, by all means use it! Cart square in the headshell and stylus point aligned with the proper overhang... you can just ignore all the protractors and gauges.

In my experience, the overhang is much easier to set up and get accurate. You can fiddle with a protractor if you want, but it is unnecessary in your case.
Click to expand...

I agree the overhang guage is easier, but the protractor makes sense to me. I mean, it doesn't lie that the cartridge is off at least at that null point. I dunno, I guess it really doesn't matter. I'll just shut up and listen now!

:music:
 
G'day thesauce, yes the centre hole can be a 'problem'. In the end I used the biggest dressmakers pin I could find to place a hole at the exact centre then used a biro tip to slowly 'enlarge' it to spindle size. That approach works well. Try that! Regards, catman.
 
thesauce said:
Thanks Howard, that makes total sense now. It sounds great where it is, but it also sounded great where it was! Haha... I just want to make sure it's set up right so my precious records are not hurt or my needle. I guess it really doesn't matter. This gets me thinking... the different methods "Stevenson and Baerwald"... they must just have the two different null points in different areas of the record (I assume). So in theory, wouldn't it not really matter where you put it in the headshell as long as it's at the right angle? Wouldn't this just move the two null points to a different area on the record? If there are only two points where the cartridge is totally aligned with the groove, most the time you are listening to it at least partially off, so why bother even worrying about it?? Hmmm... Just thinking out loud.
Click to expand...
Yes, it's two different areas of the record, and these points are measured outward from the center of the spindle. But since distortion is the worst at the inner grooves, one point is in that area where the other is maybe 2/3 the way to the outer edge. You can use any two points, but if they're too far apart or two close, you're going to get even more distortion in the other areas of the record. Since these guys went to the trouble to experiment and find out which ones work best, you might as well use theirs. Yes, the angle is critical, but for each pair of points, there is only one position in the slots and one angle that works. You proved it yourself--you had to move the cart forward for Baerwald to work.

thesauce said:
A little off topic, but I also got a tracking force guage. Found out that my Yamaha is DEAD ON by using the arm's guage, so it really wasn't necessary other than now I know my TT works right. I'm starting to think a lot of this stuff is overkill, but who knows. I'll go play some more, it's fun anyway! The more I play with other turntables, the more I like my Yamaha. Everything just works as it should and feels like a well built machine. I wonder why so many people talk about the Technics all the time and I don't hear much about the Yamaha's. I have a Technics and it's nice, but I wouldn't trade it for this one!

Thanks again, I had a feeling you would be the one to answer my question! :D
Click to expand...
Yes, a lot of stuff is overkill. I believe in simple to start out, then tweak if necessary. If the Yamaha's arm gauge is accurate, use it. Yamahas are excellent. In fact, most of the Japanese turntables were excellent. But while many of their competitors models were better, Technics dominated the market, and they still make them today.
 
Howard is right on the money, Ben. He's a "Stevenson Man", I'm a "Baerwald Man". Different approaches to solve the same issue. No right or wrong answer, per se', if your arm and headshell will accomodate them both.
 
For years I was a Baerwald man but recently switched to Stevenson for both the Technics and Rega, I think it sounds better. For the Technics I'll often use the overhang gauge and double check with a ruler. It's easy, fast and I hear no difference compared to using the Stevenson protractor.
 
For you guys who download printable protractors online, I find that it is so simple, to take an old magazine, set paper protractor on it, take a Razor Utility Knife, or Exacto Knife, and neatly cut the little circle out for the Spindle. Rotate the paper as you go, works perfect everytime.

Trying to punch out a hole with pin, whatever, is always going to lead to de-centering. Mark
 
Using the correct protractor is my choice always.
Regards,
Jim
 
hakaplan said:
...
Your turntable and overhang gauge were based on Stevenson geometry. When you try to impose Baerwald (turntablebasics protractor) the cartridge will move forward several millimeters and should rotate inward. If you have room in the headshell and prefer the sound you can use it. If you don't have enough room, go back to using the overhang gauge. Using the gauge the cartridge should be square with the headshell.
Click to expand...

That squares with my experience with a Baerwald type protractor - the Geo Disc. Aligning with that definitely moves the cartridge forward. The Geo Disc has actually been around for a while. I got mine in the late seventies when I became dissatisfied with the Pioneer overhang gauge, which had no provisions for correcting for parallax in lining up the stylus.

My main fear would be excessive record wear by using the Baerwald geometry when the Stevenson was what the manufacturer intended. Anything to it? If it's just a slight difference in null points, then I won't be too concerned. It'd be interesting to see just how much the different alignment approaches affect something like null points.
 
Actually the points are pretty close:
Baerwald: 66, 120
Stevenson: 60, 117

I don't know why the Japanese mfrs specifically chose Stevenson, but the idea was that using their geometry you can align the cartridge quickly and easily--square with the headshell and at 49mm from stylus to rear of rubber washer. Using Baerwald will not do any damage to the record. It just makes aligning the cartridge more difficult and time consuming. In fact, if you like using Baerwald and run out of mounting room on the headshell, get a Technics or DJ headshell--they are longer.
 
thesauce said:
The more I play with other turntables, the more I like my Yamaha. Everything just works as it should and feels like a well built machine. I wonder why so many people talk about the Technics all the time and I don't hear much about the Yamaha's. I have a Technics and it's nice, but I wouldn't trade it for this one!
Click to expand...

Shhhhh... everybody'll want one. :D

Quite a few Yamahas get talked about, actually... YP-D8 and (Japan only)D10, the PX-series linear trackers, the "Gigantic & Tremendous" (GT) series, the PF-1000... and I see your 750 has a VTA adjustment, very nice feature. :thmbsp:

I have a YP-D8, it is my primary table. :)
 
Never had my hands on one, but some of the pics i've seen of Yamy decks are quite impressive. I'm rather fond of their snowmobiles, I have two. Impressive specs there, too. The rumble on my 600 triple is particularly impressive.
 
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