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P-Mount Cart/Preamp suggestions for SL-BD20D

wushuliu

wushuliu

Super Member
Hello everyone, first post.

I am new to vinyl (as an adult, anyway) and am looking to start w/ an
entry-level TT like the SL-BD20D which seems to get generally good marks.
But I'm reading that upgrading the cart is a good idea.

What would you all recommend as a good cartridge to match? So far I have read that Grado P-Mounts are good, but they may cause hum w/ the BD20.

Also I do not know much about phono preamps, other than the price range is pretty wide.

My total budget is ~$250 (pretty firm) for everything.

And please pardon if I seem like I'm being lazy. I'm just finishing off 18 months of audio purchases/research (DIY 2-way monitors, Marantz SR4002 and Panny XR-57 receivers, Oppo 980H, Roku Netflix Player, WD Media HD TV Player). So I'm a little burnt out w/ the forum searches!:sigh: (I will continue to try, however)

thanks much, this is a great resource :music:

w
 
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I have a SL-DD22 with a Grado Green, and I love the Gardo. I don't have any hum with my cart and table combo. For the money, I think the Grado is the way to go. I picked mine up for $50 at my nearest hi-fi store.
 
Do you already have the turntable?

If not, look into something else that does not use the "P" mount as better quality cartridges for the "P" mount are increasingly rare...and if you do decide to upgrade your table later, the "P" mount cartridges aren't usable without an adapter to normal 1/2" mounting...and even then it's still a kludge...and the Grado "P" mount bodies that I have won't fit into the three different T4P to 1/2" adapters that I have on hand....

The T4P cartridge mounting was a solution to a problem that most analog hobbyists can easily overcome with a simple instruction on proper alignment and easily available templates...if you are fumble fingered, have poor eyesight (believe me, the older I get the more "correction" I need to see the stylus for alignment purposes), are like one of my best friend's sisters and really clueless, or are lazy, then the T4P mounting is the way to go....

If you do have the TT, oh well, talk to others that do...but I wouldn't dump any money into one...they are pretty much a dead end now...there are so many other tables out there that sound better and are more resistance to cartridge obsolescence, and have an almost innumerable amount of choices for cartridges...

The Grado cartridges?

Many people will tell you how much they like them....I am the opposite with any Grado below the Sonata...but, I have yet to hear one of the new "+1" Golds....I need to order one and see if there is a decent amount of improvement over my current Gold that I sourced right before Grado's change...

Remember, though, this is just my opinion and of all eight turntables that I own none are "P" mount....
 
Tshea - hmm, thanks for the input.

Hi Rick, I have not purchased the BD20D as yet but the gap b/w this TT and the other recommended entry-level tables (Rega, Pro-Ject, MH, etc) is a large one for me (I've spent a bunch already!).

I appreciate quality audio, but I'm dipping my toe into vinyl for now in case it turns out that I won't use it enough to justify a more serious investment. Conversely, I would LOVE to get a cheap used find (and I may yet try this weekend at thrift/pawn stores) - but after spending 6 months DIY my speakers and learning all about THAT I am more focused on something that is relatively easy to set up with minimal troubleshooting.
 
I disagree that p-mount is a dead end. There were tons of p-mount tables sold in the 80s and enough in circulation that the cartridges will continue to be available indefinitely. And Technics continues to sell the SL-BD20D new. Not only that, but for cartridges like the AT-92ECD, which I would suggest as something decent to start out with, lpgear now sells fancy line contact and Shibata styli. This is a recent development indicating that with the resurge in vinyl, and preponderance of vintage p-mount tables being resold, p-mount support is the best it's been in years. The microline stylus lpgear sells essentially turns this cartridge into an AT440MLa. That's not chopped liver.

So if you already have the turntable, don't despair. While the more sought after p-mount models are the vintage quartz direct drive versions, yours will still serve you well and make decent music. Look for the AT-92ECD on ebay for $25 shipped.

As to phono preamps, there are a wide variety to choose from. You might look at phonopreamps.com. The TC-750 has gotten good reviews here lately.
 
wushuliu said:
Hello everyone, first post.

I am new to vinyl (as an adult, anyway) and am looking to start w/ an
entry-level TT like the SL-BD20D which seems to get generally good marks.
But I'm reading that upgrading the cart is a good idea.

What would you all recommend as a good cartridge to match? So far I have read that Grado P-Mounts are good, but they may cause hum w/ the BD20.

Also I do not know much about phono preamps, other than the price range is pretty wide.

My total budget is ~$250 (pretty firm) for everything.

And please pardon if I seem like I'm being lazy. I'm just finishing off 18 months of audio purchases/research (DIY 2-way monitors, Marantz SR4002 and Panny XR-57 receivers, Oppo 980H, Roku Netflix Player, WD Media HD TV Player). So I'm a little burnt out w/ the forum searches!:sigh: (I will continue to try, however)

thanks much, this is a great resource :music:

w
Click to expand...

I have had an SL-BD20D since 1996, with the stock cart. It's served me very well--in fact, I'm listening to it right now.

That said, if you have $250 to spend, you can definitely spend it better. Hear me out.

For $200 or a bit less, you can get a used Thorens TD 160 on eBay, as I did. I got an AT440MLa cart for it, and the result is stellar. A noticeable improvement over the Technics, plus it's got character and history behind it. The Technics is a respectable piece of machinery, but there's nothing cool about it, and it's not very moddable. AND the resale value is negligeable.

The Thorens is cool, great quality, very moddable, and even better, its value keeps increasing, so if you ever decide to upgrade or get out of vinyl altogether, you'll be almost certain to make all your money back and then some.

The cheapest you can get a new AT440MLa for right now is $120, but others here can recommend a good cartridge in the $50 to $75 range that will do you just fine.
 
Thanks Goldwax - certainly is tempting. My concern is once you add up the accessories for that TT - stylus gauge, protractor (?), etc. Not to mention the learning curve for me set it up properly - my knowledge is zero in this area... I know it sounds lazy just from this post, but as I said I've put a lot of work into my HT setup thus far and now my spare time is waning.

Your resale argument is a good one and I'll keep it in mind.:thmbsp:
 
hakaplan said:
I disagree that p-mount is a dead end. There were tons of p-mount tables sold in the 80s and enough in circulation that the cartridges will continue to be available indefinitely. And Technics continues to sell the SL-BD20D new. Not only that, but for cartridges like the AT-92ECD, which I would suggest as something decent to start out with, lpgear now sells fancy line contact and Shibata styli. This is a recent development indicating that with the resurge in vinyl, and preponderance of vintage p-mount tables being resold, p-mount support is the best it's been in years. The microline stylus lpgear sells essentially turns this cartridge into an AT440MLa. That's not chopped liver.

So if you already have the turntable, don't despair. While the more sought after p-mount models are the vintage quartz direct drive versions, yours will still serve you well and make decent music. Look for the AT-92ECD on ebay for $25 shipped.

As to phono preamps, there are a wide variety to choose from. You might look at phonopreamps.com. The TC-750 has gotten good reviews here lately.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info, I perused LPGEAR and was unable to find a Shibata(?)stylus for the AT cartridge you mentioned. I did find the cartridge on Ebay for fairly cheap, yes. But where do I find that shibata/microline replacement on lpgear?**NEVER MIND** I think i found a post where you linked the shibata. $140(!!!)

How about the AT311EP for $60? I see that JR.com is also selling it for $40...

One more question if you'll indulge me: What criteria should I be using to assess a cartridge/styli? Frequency response? Weight? I see specs are provided but am not sure how to interpret them interms of performace. Any help here would be great!

w
 
goldwax said:
I have had an SL-BD20D since 1996, with the stock cart. It's served me very well--in fact, I'm listening to it right now.

That said, if you have $250 to spend, you can definitely spend it better. Hear me out.

For $200 or a bit less, you can get a used Thorens TD 160 on eBay, as I did. I got an AT440MLa cart for it, and the result is stellar. A noticeable improvement over the Technics, plus it's got character and history behind it. The Technics is a respectable piece of machinery, but there's nothing cool about it, and it's not very moddable. AND the resale value is negligeable.

The Thorens is cool, great quality, very moddable, and even better, its value keeps increasing, so if you ever decide to upgrade or get out of vinyl altogether, you'll be almost certain to make all your money back and then some.

The cheapest you can get a new AT440MLa for right now is $120, but others here can recommend a good cartridge in the $50 to $75 range that will do you just fine.
Click to expand...

I happened to come across a local CL listing for this Dual CS 1264: for $65. Would that be a good deal?
 
wushuliu said:
Thanks for the info, I perused LPGEAR and was unable to find a Shibata(?)stylus for the AT cartridge you mentioned. I did find the cartridge on Ebay for fairly cheap, yes. But where do I find that shibata/microline replacement on lpgear?**NEVER MIND** I think i found a post where you linked the shibata. $140(!!!)

How about the AT311EP for $60? I see that JR.com is also selling it for $40...

One more question if you'll indulge me: What criteria should I be using to assess a cartridge/styli? Frequency response? Weight? I see specs are provided but am not sure how to interpret them interms of performace. Any help here would be great!

w
Click to expand...
Little secret. All those p-mount ATs that look like that--the cartridge bodies are identical. The only difference is the stylus. And AT sold/sells the same cartridge under several different names. The AT92-ECD is the same cartridge as the AT311EP--same stylus, same specs. If you're uncomfortable with ebay, Amazon sells the 92-ECD for $26 shipped. Members here have purchased at and were very impressed. It's a deal even if you don't have a p-mount arm, because it includes an adapter for standard mount.

Frequency response is usually a non-issue because even the cheapest cartridges have responses that extend beyond what humans can hear. But they report whatever the testing equipment detects. In the days of quadraphonics a high frequency was needed to carry the decoding signal. Weight is rarely an issue unless one has problems with an arm that's too heavy or light to accomodate it. All p-mount cartridges weigh 6g and track at 1.25g. It's a standard that was set by Technics in the 80s.

Channel separation is significant--it's essentially how effective it can produce stereo. Put in perspective, Shure's best cartridge has CS of 25db at 1KHz, which is very good. ATs excel at CS such that their cheapest elliptical in this particular series is 26db and it just goes up from there. The 92ECD/311EP is 29db.

As to the stylus dimensions and shape, there is conical, elliptical and line contact types. The narrower and longer the stylus, the deeper it rides and more detail it extracts from the groove. So a .4 x .7mil elliptical will be an improvement over a .7 mil conical. But a .3 x .7, as is the 92ECD, is preferred over the .4 x .7. You'll see terms like hyperelliptical, Shibata, microline, microridge, stereohedron to describe various degrees of line contact. Generally the more expensive, the better the stylus.
 
wushuliu said:
I happened to come across a local CL listing for this Dual CS 1264: for $65. Would that be a good deal?
Click to expand...
I think so, but Duals are not my forte and it could be a model that suffered problems unbeknownst to me. Hopefully someone else will chime in. Just keep in mind that once you start listening to vinyl and lurking around these forums you might get the urge to try other cartridges. Extra headshell adapters for Duals are not cheap or plentiful. Japanese s-arms turntables all use standardized bayonet headshells which are plentiful and inexpensive, so it's easy to have extras with cartridges ready mounted for quick swapping. Not everyone cares about this, but some regret not knowing ahead of time, so I'm just mentioning it. Plenty of members have Duals and absolutely love them.
 
hakaplan said:
I think so, but Duals are not my forte and it could be a model that suffered problems unbeknownst to me. Hopefully someone else will chime in. Just keep in mind that once you start listening to vinyl and lurking around these forums you might get the urge to try other cartridges. Extra headshell adapters for Duals are not cheap or plentiful. Japanese s-arms turntables all use standardized bayonet headshells which are plentiful and inexpensive, so it's easy to have extras with cartridges ready mounted for quick swapping. Not everyone cares about this, but some regret not knowing ahead of time, so I'm just mentioning it. Plenty of members have Duals and absolutely love them.
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks so much for this wealth of info!
 
The 1264 is a pretty good full-automatic changer model (its single-play brother would be the 522). But, as Howard has already hinted to, it has a proprietary headshell/cartridge mount design (1st generation ULM), so you can't mount a regular halfinch-mount cartridge without a special Dual adaptor kit - and these thingies have become pretty rare and expensive these days. Whereas you wouldn't have a problem, if you'd like the stock Dual/Ortofon ULM cartridge, 'cause original needles for these carts are still easily available.

Anyway, while I'd consider 65 bucks not a bad price for a 1264, I'd be a bit suspicious regarding the particular one in that ad, 'cause on one hand the description claims it to be fully functional, whereas on the other hand it says that the 1264 would be a semi-automatic model. I.e., the automatic start & changer functionality might not work on this 1264 - which I'd suggest to ask the seller about before purchase... And it would probably also be good to know whether the special spindle for changer operation would be included.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
wushuliu said:
Thanks Goldwax - certainly is tempting. My concern is once you add up the accessories for that TT - stylus gauge, protractor (?), etc. Not to mention the learning curve for me set it up properly - my knowledge is zero in this area... I know it sounds lazy just from this post, but as I said I've put a lot of work into my HT setup thus far and now my spare time is waning.

Your resale argument is a good one and I'll keep it in mind.:thmbsp:
Click to expand...

I haven't used a stylus gauge to set my TT up, and the protractor I downloaded for free off the Internet. The only other expense I can think of would be a belt for $13.

I will warn you that with any vintage TT, especially those shipped through the mail, wires can shake loose and stuff. That happened to one of my tonearm wires, so I had to open her up and solder it back on. Kind of a pain and kind of fun, since it was my first time soldering.

I am INFINITELY glad I went for a Thorens TD 160 over an entry-level audiophile table like a Rega, Music Hall or Pro-Ject. That said, at work I use my SL-BD20D and that works fine, too. If you want plug and play, that or some AT table in the same range is the way to go. I can't remember the model number on that one, but a lot of people like it.

Can't help you on the Dual--though it does have the not inconsiderable advantage of being used. Always a plus in my book.
 
wushuliu, you may want to take a look at the "Sony PS-X600 biotracer turntable - $60 (Manhattan Beach)" on your local CL. Awesome table that needs a little work.
 
wushuliu said:
Thanks for the info, I perused LPGEAR and was unable to find a Shibata(?)stylus for the AT cartridge you mentioned. I did find the cartridge on Ebay for fairly cheap, yes. But where do I find that shibata/microline replacement on lpgear?**NEVER MIND** I think i found a post where you linked the shibata. $140(!!!)

How about the AT311EP for $60? I see that JR.com is also selling it for $40...
Click to expand...

The ATN3472 series stylii will fit the AT-92E cartridges. That means the ATN-3472ML is the best (see below for link) followed by the ATN-3472LC (LPGear Shibata replacement) and the ATN-3472HE (hyper-elliptical), followed by the standard ATN-3472SE elliptical, which is probably the same as the standard AT-92 elliptical. You can also get an ATN-3472W stylus if you want to play 78rpm records. The 311EP stylus, as Howard said, will also fit, along with probably a stack of others I haven’t found out about yet! I think LPGear also sell their own versions of this cartridge, made for them by AT.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATN3472ML

Of course, AT also sell other 1/2 inch mount cartridges with microline stylii at cheaper prices, but the great beauty of the P-mount system is you only have to do the alignment once if using a P-mount 1/2 inch adaptor, and if you have a P-mount turntable, the manufacturer of the turntable has already done the alignment for you.

-Don
 
I can recommend the Audio Technica AT92E p-mount. I use it on a Technics SL-QD3 direct drive and I am completely pleased with both.

The only difference between the AT92E and the AT311EP is in the output levels (3.3 mv vs. 5.0 mv). The frequency responses, channel separation, compliance and stylus are identical. So my advice is to save your money and go with the AT92E.

Another advantage of the P-mount system is no need to worry about setting tracking force, anti-skate, alignment, protractors, et all.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there aren't better tables and cartridges out there. But at the same time, I would pass off these tables and p-mount cartridges as junk either. They are quite capable of producing great sound on a very small budget. You can find a mid 80's Technics direct drive for next to nothing. I saw a SL-QD3 go recently near here for $10. Dang, I wished I have gotten it!:tears:

The AT92E will cost you about $25 and if you need a preamp, I can agree with Howard and recommend the TC-750 preamp. I have the TC-750LC which I used for my 78 rpm turntable and I am pleased with it, especially for the cost.
 
Lastplace said:
wushuliu, you may want to take a look at the "Sony PS-X600 biotracer turntable - $60 (Manhattan Beach)" on your local CL. Awesome table that needs a little work.
Click to expand...


The ad says the left channel dropped out and it cues a few inches off after extended play. Do those sound like easy fixes?
 
wushuliu said:
The ad says the left channel dropped out and it cues a few inches off after extended play. Do those sound like easy fixes?
Click to expand...

The channel dropping out is probably a bad RCA cable--those are usually easy to replace.

I don't even know what "cues a few inches off" means. If it means you lower the arm at one point and it ends up two inches away on the record, that doesn't sound promising. The PS-X600 is a very electronic turntable, so if the automation or arm movement doesn't work properly, it's probably going to be expensive to fix.
 
hakaplan said:
The channel dropping out is probably a bad RCA cable--those are usually easy to replace.

I don't even know what "cues a few inches off" means. If it means you lower the arm at one point and it ends up two inches away on the record, that doesn't sound promising. The PS-X600 is a very electronic turntable, so if the automation or arm movement doesn't work properly, it's probably going to be expensive to fix.
Click to expand...

hmmm, it says "after extended play time it cues in a few inches from where it should"...
 
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