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Vintage Shure guide

K

Kjell-B

Active Member
:)

In my opinion the classic Shure MM cartridges from around 1970 represent real high-end audio at that time as well as today.

The top model was of course V15-II, and some very good and popular clones of it were the M75 and especially the M91 models. My own favorite is the M91 ED cartridge; a somewhat improved M91 for Dual tables was the DM103-ME cartridge. It can use the same stylus as the M91. The top versions of all these cartridges used a good nude diamond stylus.

Now it is time to discuss the problem today when using these old cartridges.
- It is difficult to find the original stylus, and Shure changed the production around 1980 to a much simpler and crude DJ type of stylus with the same designation and outer look.
- The usual cheap replacement styli today cannot give the real sound potential of the old Shure's.

Solutions follow here:
- buy the more expensive SAS stylus from JICO, Japan, or
- ship the original well-used stylus to the Expert Stylus Co., UK and get a modern fine-line retip.

Pictures below show two N91 ED styli placed together: the old high-end stylus and the newer "DJ" stylus, both of Shure origin ("DJ" manufactured in Mexico; the good stylus is of US production).

It can easily be seen that there is a big difference between the two - the crude DJ stylus to the left bears a thick cantilever and a dark metal-bonded diamond tip. To the right the good nude diamond low-mass stylus from the 70's.

The last picture to the right shows the famous V15-II cartridge as found in hifi ads 1970.

:)
 

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:)

The good SAS needles for vintage Shure can be obtained from this company:
http://www.export-japan.com/marketi...age=3&osCsid=a4ca7141f3f434ca41207c19489bea8a

The company, named JICO = Nippon Precision Jewel Industry Co., Ltd, has been a main supplier of cheap styli for many years. In addition they now have available a super needle, the SAS needle, which is available for most known MM cartridges, both vintage and modern.

The list of M75/M91 models available from JICO is:
SAS stylus: N 75-6S
SAS stylus: N 75ED/2 (both N75 seem to be the same product)
SAS stylus: N 91 E
SAS stylus: N 91 G (both N91 seem to be the same product)

Since M75 and M91 share the same inner cartridge body, both cartridges will now with identical styli yield the same sound quality.

Both N75 needles will fit into any M75 cartridge, and the same for both N91 and M91.
Please note that the pictures in their online catalogue only show the regular cheap styli, not the special SAS types. However, there is a spesial link to the SAS styli:
http://www.export-japan.com/marketing/stylus/sas.php

and a detailed picture of the SAS needle construction:
http://www.export-japan.com/marketing/stylus/images/products_img/e009513.jpg


Another possibility to explore is purchasing an old genuine NOS stylus or use a worn stylus with the cantilever still undamaged.
Then use the splendid cartridge retipping service provided by this company:

Expert Stylus Company,
Omega House, 50 Harriotts Lane,
Ashtead, Surrey KT21 2QB,
England
Att.: Mr. Paul Hodgson
TEL +44 1372 276604 Fax +44 1372 276147
Email: info@expertstylus.co.uk

I have used them 5 times for retipping of Shure MM cartridges with perfect results.
The cost of the retip service was 63 pounds each time.

In my own high-end vinyl system I use the M91 ED with the Expert fine line stylus (US NOS N91 ED or N91 GD; both will give the same result following retipping).

:)
 
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Kjell-B said:
Two pictures below show two N91 ED styli placed together: the old high-end stylus and the newer "DJ" stylus, both of Shure origin ("DJ" manufactured in Mexico; the good stylus is of US production).

It can easily be seen that there is a big difference between the two - the crude DJ stylus to the left bears a thick cantilever and a dark metal-bonded stylus. To the right the good nude diamond low-mass stylus from the 70's.
Click to expand...
This explains a lot -- I had one NOS Shure stylus that sounded like dog poop (I chucked it) and another one that sounds great (still have that one).
 
Kjell-B said:
:)
Pictures below show two N91 ED styli placed together: the old high-end stylus and the newer "DJ" stylus, both of Shure origin ("DJ" manufactured in Mexico; the good stylus is of US production).

It can easily be seen that there is a big difference between the two - the crude DJ stylus to the left bears a thick cantilever and a dark metal-bonded diamond tip. To the right the good nude diamond low-mass stylus from the 70's.
:)
Click to expand...

This is new information to me (thank you!).
And this explains why my recently bought original N91ED stylus looks the same as my recently bought original N91E stylus (bonded i.o. nude diamond as I was expecting to get as I was to believe that ~ED stood for nude diamond).:tears:

Pictures of styli: 1=N91ED 2=N91E 3=VN35E(this is a nude diamond)

-John-
 

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jd-audio said:
.... as I was expecting to get as I was to believe that ~ED stood for nude diamond).:tears:
Click to expand...



Yes it is a pity that Shure down-graded theirs own stylus production to the extent that new Shure styli can no longer be recommended for their best vintage cartridges. The important thing is to trace old stocks. Or use the SAS needles; the latter are also recommended for modern medium mass tone arms because of a slightly lower compliance. Then an old Shure can be used with a Rega arm.

In the good old days ED always meant nude diamond.

Your photo of the VN35E shows a diamond very similar to the diamonds originally used in V15-II and M91 ED. The cheaper M75 ED was similar but not quite up to the same standard.

:)
 
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I have a Shure V15 Type II that I've fitted with the JICO-recommended replacement stylus. To be honest, it sounds rather ordinary to me (actually not much different from my M97xE). What would you recommend to get the most from this cart which I have clearly underestimated to this point?
 
beej said:
I have a Shure V15 Type II that I've fitted with the JICO-recommended replacement stylus. To be honest, it sounds rather ordinary to me (actually not much different from my M97xE). What would you recommend to get the most from this cart which I have clearly underestimated to this point?
Click to expand...



I presume you refer to the expensive SAS replacement stylus, not the cheap one. JICO sells a cheap VN15E at $58.00 as well as the expensive SAS model at $97.00. You did use the SAS model ?
See:
http://www.export-japan.com/marketing/stylus/index.php?cPath=18&sort=2a&page=7

In that case your other option is to get hold of an original 1970 vintage stylus; V15-II sounds the best with it. And it can easily be retipped.

You can also use a NOS N91 ED stylus; only you have to mechanically remove a part of the plastic front piece to make it fit. A N75 HE stylus will fit directly. N91 sounds better, and quite close to the original VN15E.

The original VN15E stylus had a very high compliance; N91 ED slighly lower, and the JICO SAS a further step down. These differences will in part explain variable listening results.

:)
 
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Now if JICO would just make a SAS stylus for my M3-D I'd be happy!

I may have to sell some stuff and pick up a stylus for one of my V15TypeIII's one of these days and just see what it's all about....
 
Outed

Kjell-B said:
I presume you refer to the expensive SAS replacement stylus, not the cheap one. JICO sells a cheap VN15E at $58.00 as well as the expensive SAS model at $97.00. You did use the SAS model ?
See:
http://www.export-japan.com/marketing/stylus/index.php?cPath=18&sort=2a&page=7

In that case your other option is to get hold of an original 1970 vintage stylus; V15-II sounds the best with it. And it can easily be retipped.

You can also use a NOS N91 ED stylus; only you have to mechanically remove a part of the plastic front piece to make it fit. A N75 HE stylus will fit directly. N91 sounds better, and quite close to the original VN15E.

The original VN15E stylus had a very high compliance; N91 ED slighly lower, and the JICO SAS a further step down. These differences will in part explain variable listening results.

:)
Click to expand...

Actually, I did go for the low priced spread which explains a great deal and once again proves that, more often than not, you get what you pay for.

Thanks for outlining the options.
 
:)

Yes that explains your listening result. I just wondered, because the SAS needles as I know them deliver a dry and detailed quality of the treble quite distinct from the somewhat zingy sound of Shure M97 xE. Also the treble is a little recessed with SAS, and rather opposite with the M97 xE.

:)
 
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I bought a cheaper Jico replacement for a 95 a few years ago. It doesn't have anything like the same volume output as the original stylus though it does run with less pops & crackles and does look more elegant.

I went back to the original even though the cantilever looks bent by comparison.

What Shure original stylus will fit the 95 with & without trimming the plastic stylus mount?

The 95 is the Encore mexican version & if it helps I also have M75 ED Type 2 which accepts the 95 stylus & plays quite well but not quite as good as the 95.
 
Balifly said:
Kjell-B,

You did a great job!!!:thmbsp:

There is a mounted Realistic R-47 EB in my little collection of cartridges, there is no stylus in it.
Hope to be getting a new stylus like this soon.
http://www.export-japan.com/marketi...n=1&manufacturers_id=76&image.x=14&image.y=12
Click to expand...



Thank you for the nice words.
You should just be aware that the stylus you link to is not a SAS stylus but a cheaper one.
See:
http://www.export-japan.com/marketing/stylus/index.php?cPath=18&sort=2a&page=5

JICO sells a cheaper N95 denoted as N95HE at $58.00 as well as the expensive SAS model called N95E at $97.00. The latter will deliver vastly superior sound.

:)
 
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I am quite contend with the N95 HE for now, as it is intended for the used LPs after they have been cleaned.
Instead of buying the SAS stylus, I opted for a Nagaoka MP-110 MM at a similar price.
Trying out different flavour of cartridges from different manufacturer.:music:
 
REDone said:
What Shure original stylus will fit the 95 with & without trimming the plastic stylus mount?

The 95 is the Encore mexican version & if it helps I also have M75 ED Type 2 which accepts the 95 stylus & plays quite well but not quite as good as the 95.
Click to expand...



I do not know the Encore series well. If we can assume that the Encore series will accept the same styli as the classical models I have the following comment.

The main issue here in my opinion would be to distinguish between original Shure N95 ED produced in the US and N95 ED from Mexico. The two variants look quite similar but sound different since only the US needle has a nude diamond - it can easily be seen under the microscope, and with a little training, also seen directly. The nude diamond is almost white, while the metal-bonded looks dark.

If the needles come in original boxes the US-made will show the US address on the box.

Otherwise there are probably many original styli that will fit; including the good N91 ED; however the nude diamond N91 and N95 styli sound very similar, and then the original nude N95 may be a little easier to come by.

:)
 
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Kjell-B said:
.. a nude diamond .. and with a little training, also seen directly.
:)
Click to expand...

Yep this is right: All my Shure "nude diamond" styli tips realy shine/sparkle if looked at with the naked eye and lit with a halogen lamp (all other ones, including the Jico SAS, don't). It is a beautifull sight.

-John-
 
The SAS in my V15T3 also produced a lower output, not an issue at all really, as it is still significantly louder than my HOMC vanderHul. Both are line contact styli that ride in different (lower) part of the groove, compared to the OE elliptical, so I assumed that is one of the reasons.
 
My first real cartridge was Shure M91 ED, I fitted it to my first real turntable, a Sansui SR-212, replacing the factory fitted unit.

Thinking back the only thing I did was set the VTF, never worried about VTA or alignment, where it sat was where it sat.

It was a huge upgrade for me and probably started my love affair with audio and tinkering with this stuff.
 
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