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An Altec quasi-Valencia foray

kansei

kansei

Super Member
These speakers have been on the local CL for at least a few months. The seller was initially asking a lot, then decided to lower the price significantly. Apparently, he used to be a repair tech and still dabbles in repairing stereo gear. So, I had some extra gear the seller was interested in so we did a gear trade.

What I got is a pair of very sturdy plywood cabinets, with Altec 416 woofers, Renkus-Heinz 3301 tweeters and Emilar horns. They need bi-amping, the seller also provided an active crossover for this purpose. The dimensions are approx. 30" high x 20 x 20. These used to be installed in a recording studio locally, mounted inside a wall with only the front baffle visible (Bioya Studios in Paterson, NJ. They were owned by the late Lenny Argese).

I auditioned them for about 20 minutes, and found them to be very pleasing. There was a great amount of detail coming out of the Altecs, unlike anything else I'd heard. The Renkus-Heinz drivers were very sweet and direct.

After I got them home, I googled Altec 416 some more and found that the Valencia 864 is a remarkably similar design as far as cabinet dimensions and porting is concerned.

They are currently standing to either side of my workbench, on top of scrawny speaker stands about 3 feet high. I am driving the Altecs with my SAE 2600, the horns with my Bryston 3B-ST. The crossover is a Rane AC-22.

I spent at least six hours the last two nights throwing all types of music I could think of at these speakers. They are incredibly detailed, to the point where you can easily pick out flaws in the recording or singers missing notes. The crossover is really helpful because it allows me to raise and lower the gain on the horns instead of using tone controls. The only thing I can compare these to are Klipsch La Scala or Klipschorns, which have similar directness and impact. These are a much more compact package than the La Scala, so that's a win as well. These are nothing short of incredible, I'm very happy with them!!

Now all I need is a better listening area.
 

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Large format in a small package, i like!

How low are you able to push the XO point with those small horns?

Most people are clueless about Renkus/Emilar, glad to see somebody besides me post about/like them.

IMO, the large format Renkus drivers are the only compression drivers i've heard and owned that are nearly on par with large format Altec, and have far better power handling to boot. My experience with them however is only on LARGE 400 and 500 hz horns.

Don't be surprised if over time you find yourself wanting to add a tweeter, the 3300 series drivers are not known for their HF extension(that small horn will get the best of it), for that Mr Renkus designed the ECVH bullet tweeter, it's a ring radiator similar to the JBL 075/2402 but with full 20khz extension.

You have a great pair of unique speakers................. enjoy!:music:
 
I have the XO set at 800 right now.

Since I have independent level controls on the Rane, it's really easy boosting the horn level if they feel flat. Judging by the spec, the frequency response of the 3301 drivers drops off drastically at 12 kHz.

I have some Fostex super-tweeters I can easily add to the mix to experiment. So far, they have a lot of sizzle without being harsh.
 
I just did a speaker build with the same woofer, that is parked here: Altec MLTL with 416b. I am using the Altec 811 horn and 802g driver. High end is augmented with Heil AMT-1's. I am triamping the system, at present.

The bigger box is a better presentation than the original Model 19 enclosure. The added volume allows the woofer to dig really low and is less rolled off than a bass reflex box. Disregarding that, the 416 is a great woofer in any sized box, IMO. If you can afford the space, go bigger. If not, sit back and enjoy!:yes:

FWIW, the present crossover points I'm using are 1100 hz and 8 khz.
 
That's a nice build, too bad I don't have enough room for something like that.

Tried the Fostex tweeters, wired in parallel with the horns. They do add some top end, although I need to try them without the 1.5 mfd caps (I wired in the caps for another application).
 
Thanks, nobody has enough room for those, I'm making room.

With two 8 ohm drivers and a 1.5 uf cap, you are crossing in the Fostex's at 13 khz, no? I would suggest you slide that down a little to around 9 khz or so, maybe lower.
 
With two 8 ohm drivers and a 1.5 uf cap, you are crossing in the Fostex's at 13 khz, no?
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I'm no expert but it's probably a good starting point. Being 1st order 6db per octave slope means it's only going to be down 3db at just below 10Khz, 6db at 6.5khz, and 12db @ 3.25khz. Depending on listening preferences, that can still deliver significant power to the tweeter a LOT lower than the intended 13k XO point. In most 3 way situations i'd prefer a steeper slope on a tweeter, but a fella has to start somewhere, and "simple" has an attraction all it's own.
 
This was just a quick mock-up. I was a bit distracted as I listened, so no real impressions on the sound.

Since I'm wiring the drivers in parallel (and assuming the Renkus Heinz drivers are 8 ohm, still have to check), I am ending up with 4 ohm driver impedance. To cross at 12 kHz I would need a 3.31 mfd capacitor. This probably means I'm currently crossing the Fostex tweeters at 25 kHz.
 
Consider the actual impedance curve of both drivers, what "matters" is the actual impedance at XO. Typically, a compression driver sees rising impedance with rising frequency, the RH is likely way above 8 ohms at even 10k. Nominal impedance values can only give approximate calcs. To really know what's happening or get close, you need to model the drivers involved with their known impedance curves or at least the precise impedance at the intended crossover frequency in a suitable program.

We miss you Zilch.:tears:
 
According to the impedance chart from the compression driver spec sheet, the impedance is at 8 ohms around 10 kHz, and 16 ohms at 20 kHz. It's 10 ohms @ 12 kHz.

If I calculated it right, that would require a 3 uf capacitor in this setting.
 
According to the impedance chart from the compression driver spec sheet, the impedance is at 8 ohms around 10 kHz, and 16 ohms at 20 kHz. It's 10 ohms @ 12 kHz.
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Very nice example of a pretty flat impedance curve, helps keep things fairly "textbook".

How do the Fostex match up in terms of sensitivity?
 
I decided to scrap the Fostex tweeter idea because even though they added to the sound somewhat. The listening experience was too distracting (as in, sound not being very focused). I also read somewhere that this may happen, so decided to try something else.

I used a few different tube amps for the top end with excellent results. This made me want to be able to use a single amp to reduce additional parts in the system.

I did a lot of reading on AK and other sites about Altec speakers. This is where I ran across discussion on custom crossovers made by Zilch, the Z19. meant for Altec 19. I agonized over biulding the Z19 crossovers for a while, the cost was a bit high and the amount of effort was high as well.

A few weeks ago I finally decided to build the crossovers. The main motivating factor was noise from the active crossover and the desire to have the ability to use a single amp. It took a few hours, and I still need to house them in something and wire up the speakers. Most of the parts came from Parts Express. I followed a BOM from elsewhere on AK which doubles up on a few caps to get the right values while using the cheaper Dayton caps. I used 9" x 6" perfboard from Radio Shack as the base.

I tested briefly with the first crossover I built, and the results are amazing even with a relatively anemic EL84 PP amp. Can't wait until I get everything together and try the them with my MC30 setup. Looks like it may happen tomorrow.
 

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Today was a good day. My wife brought me a curb find - a library of congress portable turntable. She also cleaned my tube tester case which was having a slight mold problem. I think I may be breaking the ice with her and the audio gear. :D

Last, but not least, I finished the Zilch Z19 crossovers. Still working on the rubber feet, but they are not essential to the crossover effort. The bases came from a pair of old speaker stands that were kinda clumsy and I never used.

First impressions:

- they certainly make everything sound much more cohesive and smoother
- love having the ability to adjust the mids and the highs, helps on those dull-sounding tracks (although it takes a walk to adjust them)
- they're very revealing of your other gear, so if you have a weak component you will definitely hear it
- tried 3 tube amps so far: my Japanese Victor (PP EL84), upgraded Dynaco ST-70 (PP EL-34) and McIntosh MC30 (PP 6L6). The Victor was very sweet, the Dynaco very precise and revealing and the McIntosh, not surprisingly, a warm hug of sound.

It was worth the $220+ in parts and the sweat equity because these speakers really rock. I must admit I was worried that the Z19 crossover would not be a good fit for the Renkus-Heinz drivers, but they feel right at home.

Looking forward to a lot more listening. Still have to clean up my underground laboratory. Some day...
 

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All around thumbs up! :thmbsp:

I was worried that the Z19 crossover would not be a good fit for the Renkus-Heinz drivers
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As you may or may not know, Mr. Renkus worked for a time directly under Dr. J. K. Hilliard just as a couple fellows by the names of Lansing and Stephens had before him.

Not surprisingly, the Renkus and Emilar compression drivers have a sonic signature fairly similar to the Altec drivers of the same era. I listen to, and enjoy a couple pair of the small format drivers fairly regularly.
 
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