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What are your impressions of the Infinity Reference 4

krazygrrl

krazygrrl

Well-Known Member
I have an opportunity to purchase a pair of Infinity Reference 4 speakers. What are your impressions of them? What do you think they are worth. How do they compare to my Polk Monitor 7s (they are in a thrift shop and I cannot listen to them)?

Any advice, ideas, thoughts... it would all be very helpful. :yes:
 
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Are they the Reference 4 or the RS 4?
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both are good speakers, both will compare well to your Polks, I think they are worth a shot.
The downside is that both of them will need to have a total of 4 drivers refoamed.
We can walk you through it here if you need help.
 
Sir.Byrd said:
Are they the Reference 4 or the RS 4?
both are good speakers, both will compare well to your Polks, I think they are worth a shot.
The downside is that both of them will need to have a total of 4 drivers refoamed.
We can walk you through it here if you need help.
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They are the Reference 4. At least that's what the label says. They look like the top ones in your picture except the the case is black. The drivers actually appear to be in pretty good shape... maybe someone refoamed them some time back. The guy wants 130 Euros for both which is about $200.
 
krazygrrl said:
The guy wants 130 Euros for both which is about $200.
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The monetary value of anything is always subjective; however, I can tell you that I got my Infinity RS-4b's (much like the Reference Standard 4s in the lower photo) for $24.99 for the pair at the local Savers. I'm sure that a bit of searching would turn up a similar deal for a Reference 4 or equivalent. Of course, I should also tell the whole tale, which is that one woofer was missing from my RS-4b's, and the remainder needed refoaming. And normally refoaming speakers is kind of a Zen experience for me, but with the Infinitys it decidedly was not.
 
Saigo said:
The monetary value of anything is always subjective; however, I can tell you that I got my Infinity RS-4b's for $24.99 for the pair at the local Savers. I'm sure that a bit of searching would turn up a similar deal for a Reference 4 or equivalent. Of course, I should also tell the whole tale, which is that one woofer was missing from my RS-4b's, and the remainder needed refoaming. And normally refoaming speakers is kind of a Zen experience for me, but with the Infinitys it decidedly was not.
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with all due respect, you got those speakers at about 10% of a fair price for them - good fortune, yes, very much so...reasonable expectation, not so much.

I have a pair of the Reference 4 that I used to like quite a bit, but they are playing a very silent second fiddle to my Kappas. I'd say US $100-125 would be a normal, fair price for a pair, and I'd fully expect them to be superior to the speakers you said you now own (because of the remarkable EMIT drivers)
 
krazygrrl said:
I have an opportunity to purchase a pair of Infinity Reference 4 speakers. What are your impressions of them? What do you think they are worth. How do they compare to my Polk Monitor 7s (they are in a thrift shop and I cannot listen to them)?

Any advice, ideas, thoughts... it would all be very helpful. :yes:
Click to expand...

They are not worth any where near $200. These are the Harmon Kardon Infinitys, and they vastly inferior to the old classic Reference Standard Infinitys of the 1980s that were made by Arnie Nudell. For that kind of money keep listening to your Polks, saving your pennys, and if you want Infinitys look for a pair of the old classic Infinity RS III Bs or RS Four Bs.
In the meantime, if you are interested in Infinitys, and there are some great speakers in the old Infinity classics models, google this address; http://www.infinity-classics.de, for Klaus Pohligs Infinity Classics website. It's in German, but that should be okay for you, and it's chock full of classic Infinity info. Or when you open the website just click on Modelle in the column on the left, and then when that opens up here is info in English. Or look for some good old English Spendors or maybe you can find some AR 4s over there. But skip those Reference Fours, you can do much better. Good Luck.
 
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MJWPicMan is right (and he knows his s**t). A year or so ago when I was hell bent on getting a set of Infinites I auditioned a set of the big brothers to the model you're looking at and wasn't impressed at all. Maybe for out in the shop or garage (actually there are better choices for shop/garage duty for the same or less money), but you're definitley better off with the Polk 7's (I base that from ownership of Polk Monitor 10A's...and many cats around here prefer the 7's to the 10's). I recently finished restoring a set of the Reference Studio Monitors (3-way from the classic Reference series) and though they aren't the best I've heard, they are VERY nice and an order of magnitude better than the injection molded graphite cone and faux EMIT References you're looking at. Yep, two different animals after Infinity sold out to Harman. I have no clue what the used speaker market is like in your neck of the woods, but I bet it wouldn't be long before you'd be disappointed that you dropped 2 bills on those. Yeah, I'd hold out for somethin' mo' betta'.
 
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no argument at all on most of the pricing advice I'm seeing here, but, I think it only fair for those that suggest the older, genuine article Infinity speakers (which I love) to also mention the significant amplifier power necessary to make them perform as they should. This can become a very real cost consideration, above and beyond the nominal speaker price, however good.

The REf 4 are equipped with authentic EMIT drivers, nothing faux about them. They aren't "classic" Infinitys, nor are they power hogs.
 
Hmmmmm.......
It is good that I asked then. I really, REALLY appreciate all the help and good advice. I have been really happy with my Polks, it is just that you hear of all these amazing things about Infinity. Maybe I am better off to experiment with perhaps adding another pair of small speakers for additional imaging :scratch2:

It's that I just can't seem to find that happy middle ground that I am looking for in my listening room regardless what I have been doing.
 
kneeOhFight said:
with all due respect, you got those speakers at about 10% of a fair price for them - good fortune, yes, very much so...reasonable expectation, not so much.
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I should have been clearer. I've always known that I got a pretty decent deal on my RS-4b's, but I also got what I paid for to some degree. After I replaced the missing woofer (had to buy a pair to do it) and all four foam surrounds, I was probably a total of $100 into them. Still a pretty decent deal, but not like getting a complete, functional pair for $25.

Also, I have to admit that I was never quite comfortable with them. They sounded great at low to moderate volumes, but the woofer excursion got crazy when I pushed the volume up to the levels where I listen when I really want to rock.

Anyway, what I really want from Infinity is a pair of IRS Betas. I am determined.
 
krazygrrl said:
Hmmmmm.......
It is good that I asked then. I really, REALLY appreciate all the help and good advice. I have been really happy with my Polks, it is just that you hear of all these amazing things about Infinity. Maybe I am better off to experiment with perhaps adding another pair of small speakers for additional imaging :scratch2:

It's that I just can't seem to find that happy middle ground that I am looking for in my listening room regardless what I have been doing.
Click to expand...

Perhaps something upstream needs attention as well?
 
krazygrrl said:
Hmmmmm.......
It is good that I asked then. I really, REALLY appreciate all the help and good advice. I have been really happy with my Polks, it is just that you hear of all these amazing things about Infinity. Maybe I am better off to experiment with perhaps adding another pair of small speakers for additional imaging :scratch2:

It's that I just can't seem to find that happy middle ground that I am looking for in my listening room regardless what I have been doing.
Click to expand...

Upstream gear is certainly something to consider. But there's another factor I feel is imperative you address first.

Your listening space.

If you know your room's acoustics are great then you can stop here. If not, then read on.

I'll try to make this quick.....
My speaker addiction started not quite two years ago. Early on I decided the best way for me to approach this hobby (and all it's tempting choices) was to do lots of research and draw from the experience of the many AKer's that have been messing with this stuff for decades. I limited myself to only picking up models that were proven perfomers...JBL L100T3, Polk SDA-1C, Klipsch KG5 (with Crites upgrades), Dynaco 25's, KLH 6 and 23, DCM TimeFrame 600's, the classic Infinities, ADS 1290/2's, and Vandersteen 2ci's. At the same time I was picking up all these killer speakers I was improving my upstream gear with bigger and better amps and well regarded pre's. No doubt, as the amps/pre's/DAC's/CDP's/interconnects/cables, etc. improved so did the performance of the speakers. But it wasn't until a few months ago when I picked up the Vandersteen 2ci's that I realized I had a major handicap that was keepin' all the sweet gear I had amassed from showin' its stuff.....my listening space. I had given no attention to acoustics other than I put a big rug down on my concrete floor. Aside from that it was out of control with echos, reflections, nulls...all the nasty stuff. I hated the Vandersteens when I first got them home and couldn't understand how they could be so universally praised. Well, I brought my problem here and got it solved here as the wise AK sages recommended I start doing some acoustic treatments to my room. I've since been obsessed with room treatments and, let me tell you, it has made all the difference in the world. The Vandies now sound exceptional and I'm discovering the true potential of all these great speakers I'd written off in the past. If you haven't addressed your room's acoustics I strongly encourage you to get your fanny over to the Listening Spaces section and start doin' some research....and google Ethan Winer.....he's the man. Even if giving your room's acoustics some attention doesn't make your Polks the cat's meow it will give you the necessary foundation it takes to enable you to make an accurate judgement of any piece of gear.
 
kneeOhFight said:
no argument at all on most of the pricing advice I'm seeing here, but, I think it only fair for those that suggest the older, genuine article Infinity speakers (which I love) to also mention the significant amplifier power necessary to make them perform as they should. This can become a very real cost consideration, above and beyond the nominal speaker price, however good.

The REf 4 are equipped with authentic EMIT drivers, nothing faux about them. They aren't "classic" Infinitys, nor are they power hogs.
Click to expand...

Sorry kneeOhFight, but you're mistaken. The original Infinity EMIT tweeter, which is a great tweeter and is basically a little electrostatic speaker, was a push/pull design with magnets on both sides of the tweeter material, plus it was much larger. When Harman Kardon bought Infinity they downgraded all the components. With the EMIT, which they named the EMIT R, they started using only one magnet on the rear so it's only a one way tweeter. They also cut the size of the tweeter material to appx. 1/4 of what it was in the original EMIT. So no, the Harman Kardon EMIT is not a genuine EMIT. And if you play Infinitys with the original EMIT next to a pair of Harman Kardon Infinitys like Kappa 7.1s and listen to both tweeters, which I have done several times, it's easy to hear the difference. The EMIT R is vastly inferior to the original EMIT.
 
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krazygrrl said:
Hmmmmm.......
It is good that I asked then. I really, REALLY appreciate all the help and good advice. I have been really happy with my Polks, it is just that you hear of all these amazing things about Infinity. Maybe I am better off to experiment with perhaps adding another pair of small speakers for additional imaging :scratch2:

It's that I just can't seem to find that happy middle ground that I am looking for in my listening room regardless what I have been doing.
Click to expand...

Krazygirl.

It's a chore. Like tomlinmgt says acoustics are very important. I suspect your problems are probably more related to what you are running upstream from your speakers. Remember that the chain can't be any stronger than it's weakest link. All it takes is one inferior piece of equipment to make the what comes out of your speakers sound mediocre, even if the rest of your components are better quality. Even cheap interconnects can degrade the sound of your stereo. What else are you running in your system? And please list everything. I think if you do you will get some quality diagnoses of where your system might be coming up short.
 
kneeOhFight said:
no argument at all on most of the pricing advice I'm seeing here, but, I think it only fair for those that suggest the older, genuine article Infinity speakers (which I love) to also mention the significant amplifier power necessary to make them perform as they should. This can become a very real cost consideration, above and beyond the nominal speaker price, however good.

The REf 4 are equipped with authentic EMIT drivers, nothing faux about them. They aren't "classic" Infinitys, nor are they power hogs.
Click to expand...

Gonna have to take you task on this one, kneeOhFight. Aside from your claim that EMIT R tweeters are the real deal, which MJWpicman clarified for us, you're brush stroke is a little too broad when you imply that all of the classic Infinities require big power to perform. For the last couple of days I've been listening to my Reference Studio Monitors (12" poly woofer, 5" poly mid, EMIT tweeter in an acoustic suspension cabinet) powered by both a 350wpc Phase Linear 700B and a much less ambitious 100wpc Carver CM-1090 integrated. The RSM's sound great with either amp and the Carver loses very little, if any, to the Phase Linear with these speakers. Not trying to be argumentative, just want to make sure no one gets inaccurate/incomplete information.
 
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I have decided to forgo the Infinitys...

Thank you all for the advice. I have learned a lot... I think I will do some experimentation with a smaller pair of bookshelf speakers as a compliment. As to the upstream, well it can always be improved. Interconnects were mentioned. I use some homemade ones made from very high-quality co-axle cable and premium connectors. I am currently using an Adcom amp and pre-amp, as well as a Yamaha SACD player. While not the best, they are certainly of good quality.

As to the acoustics of the room. Well, here I will have to do some work. Due to space limitations in our apartment, the only room which comes to mind as a listening room (and is being used as such) is our living room. Unfortunately, it is rather severely rectangular with a huge wall of windows on one of the long sides and a door to the balcony. This severely limits speaker placement. The other side is taken up by a sofa and easy chair and several very large book cases; as well as a door leading to a hallway. On one of the short walls I have a tall cabinet with my gear stacked on top. On the other short wall there is a door to another room. Another issue, is the floor. It's hardwood, and I love hardwood floors... but that provides reflection and other difficulties.
 
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Sounds like you have a pretty good foundation upstream (and pretty impressed you're makin' your own interconnects!). The room acoustics certainly aren't ideal and you could do some fundamental, inexpensive treatments (if you don't have one yet get yourself a big rug down....that'll help immensely) and likely hear some changes for the better. What's cool about treating a room is even small things can yield changes...sometimes subtle, sometimes quite perceivable. And since you're inclined to tackle DIY type projects (is that a little southern independence I detect?;)) you'll likely enjoy the heck out of gettin' what I call the "rascally sound spirits" under control. Good luck with the Infinities...your upstream gear could very well make them sound much better than the ones I listened to. Haggle like crazy and get 'em as cheap as you can and report back to let us know how they compare to your excellent Polks.
 
Oops, nevermind. Just glanced at the first sentence of your post and see you said "forgo"...I thought I read "go for". I think you're makin' a smart move. Like we said...much better speakers out there to choose from.....and the hunt is so much fun!

As far as your acoustics situation, you have a little goin' for you but still it sounds like you could benefit greatly from puttin' some effort into makin' it better. What you want to do first and foremost is tame the reflections you're getting off your most reflective surfaces. From what you've described it sounds as if the hardwood floor and glass wall are your main culprits. The wall opposite the glass wall has some absorption (couch and easy chair) and a little diffusion (book cases), so that's a start. Now I'd focus on a rug for the floor (if you don't already have one) and getting something absorptive up in front of a good portion of the glass wall. Drapes or curtains would help and might be the easiest thing to do, but some absorption panels would be better. And from what I've read even if you do go up with drapes or curtains they'll need to be pretty thick and heavy to begin to offer enough absortpion to help the reflectivity issues you get from all that glass. Others probably have a better opinion on the curtain/ drape thing than myself as I've been able to rely on panels that I built myself to tame my reflections. Next I'd focus on the corners...first the ones on the wall behind the speakers. Do you have anything in those corners? Get as much absorption there as possible and research the topic to see what best suits your needs and capabilities. I'd offer some recommendations but, with you bein' in Germany, I don't know how easy it is for you to get the raw materials (fiberglass or rockwool insulation panels and/or pipe insulation) or how much time you have to mess with this stuff or even a space to do things like basic woodworking and assembly. And you may not even want to get all OCD on it like I have, but you seem to care about getting the best sound you can out of your gear and I'm here to tell you when I started treating my room the improvements were significant enough that it became an addiction to make it better....and I'm still tweakin' it.
I've gone from this...
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....to this....

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tomlinmgt said:
Sounds like you have a pretty good foundation upstream (and pretty impressed you're makin' your own interconnects!). The room acoustics certainly aren't ideal and you could do some fundamental, inexpensive treatments (if you don't have one yet get yourself a big rug down....that'll help immensely) and likely hear some changes for the better. What's cool about treating a room is even small things can yield changes...sometimes subtle, sometimes quite perceivable. And since you're inclined to tackle DIY type projects (is that a little southern independence I detect?;)) you'll likely enjoy the heck out of gettin' what I call the "rascally sound spirits" under control. Good luck with the Infinities...your upstream gear could very well make them sound much better than the ones I listened to. Haggle like crazy and get 'em as cheap as you can and report back to let us know how they compare to your excellent Polks.
Click to expand...

tomlinmgt said:
Oops, nevermind. Just glanced at the first sentence of your post and see you said "forgo"...I thought I read "go for". I think you're makin' a smart move. Like we said...much better speakers out there to choose from.....and the hunt is so much fun!

As far as your acoustics situation, you have a little goin' for you but still it sounds like you could benefit greatly from puttin' some effort into makin' it better. What you want to do first and foremost is tame the reflections you're getting off your most reflective surfaces. From what you've described it sounds as if the hardwood floor and glass wall are your main culprits. The wall opposite the glass wall has some absorption (couch and easy chair) and a little diffusion (book cases), so that's a start. Now I'd focus on a rug for the floor (if you don't already have one) and getting something absorptive up in front of a good portion of the glass wall. Drapes or curtains would help and might be the easiest thing to do, but some absorption panels would be better. And from what I've read even if you do go up with drapes or curtains they'll need to be pretty thick and heavy to begin to offer enough absortpion to help the reflectivity issues you get from all that glass. Others probably have a better opinion on the curtain/ drape thing than myself as I've been able to rely on panels that I built myself to tame my reflections. Next I'd focus on the corners...first the ones on the wall behind the speakers. Do you have anything in those corners? Get as much absorption there as possible and research the topic to see what best suits your needs and capabilities. I'd offer some recommendations but, with you bein' in Germany, I don't know how easy it is for you to get the raw materials (fiberglass or rockwool insulation panels and/or pipe insulation) or how much time you have to mess with this stuff or even a space to do things like basic woodworking and assembly. And you may not even want to get all OCD on it like I have, but you seem to care about getting the best sound you can out of your gear and I'm here to tell you when I started treating my room the improvements were significant enough that it became an addiction to make it better....and I'm still tweakin' it.
Click to expand...

I want to thank you for your suggestions. I do have a rather thick, heavy carpet that is under the sofa and chair. That has helped somewhat actually. My husband's books to their part to control the sound as well. I really cannot do much with the rest of that wall. There is a door, that is not placed very efficiently, and I do have some plants. They certainly don't really contribute. I do, especially because of budgetary constraints, have to tweak my gear to get the best possible sound.

Thank you for the lovely compliment on the interconnects. They were actually, that is the cables cut and things like that, by an acquaintance of mine who is an installer for Time-Warner. If figured, since he does these this for a living, he would be quite efficient at cutting co-axle cable. I was right! LOL!! The sound difference from the cheap interconnects I had been using was immense.

If I ever get my husband motivated, as he is quite a good wood-worker, I want him to build me a set of stands for the speakers. I have them sitting on these small wooden folding tables which are probably 12" or so too tall.

Thank you again for your suggestions, and I thank all the others too. I am learning, slowly but surely! :D
 
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