The Saga of the Tannoys

Well folks, this weekend started out with a $5 Electro-Voice Model 848 PA Horn, and then came a single $5 Sansui SP-1500 for the sum of my Friday finds. Saturday brought a pair of $10 Infinity Reference Studio Monitors with mismatched woofers, but otherwise sounding great. That afternoon came a pair of $40 HPM-100s and I was rocking. I foolishly thought the weekend over and outside of my plans to hit a couple of thrifts on Monday, there would be no more successful hunts.

Come Monday morning, I drive down to my third favorite Goodwill thrift that in the past has only provided good music (CDs and LPs) and once many months ago a beat up Kenwood KA-5500. I park and start walking to the door and glimpse just in front what appears to be an old console speaker … I start walking faster. As I near, I see that there’s another one in behind and that these are a pair … I walk even faster. Just as I reach the door, I see the emblem on the speaker grill, my heart skips a beat and I rush inside to find someone to talk to about possible buying them. 5 minutes later, after waiting for some lady with a pair of screaming kids finish arguing over the price of a comforter; I manage to grab the attention of the employee who at my urging calls the pricer up front to assist me.

The two of us exit the sliding doors, hang a sharp left and come to face the speakers that sitting out there in the shade in a hot 82 degrees and rising weather. We find no Goodwill price tag on them, just a couple of sticky notes from Saturday’s garage sale where they came from, showing a starting price of $65 each dropped down to $40 for the pair. Turns out these have already been through the run and were just put out in front to attract people in for the Memorial Day sale. I ask the pricer what the store wants for them and he leans over them to read the sticky note, rises again and declares that the price shall be $40 … and I stare at him for a moment in mild shock and he adds “for the pair.”

I feigned calmness as I hurried with the pricer to the cashier and make the $40 purchase for a pair of …. Tannoy Berkeleys.

I’ve seen brief mentions of Tannoys and almost always have skipped over the text certain that I’ll never find any of those around here, let alone in my price range. I’ve simply classified them with ‘70s Klipsch in the category of “Garage Sale/Thrift Store Unobtanium.” So, I’m really quite clueless as to Tannoys, outside of that they are supposed to be really, really good. :yes:

With these Tannoys, the grill cloths are in good condition with just a few little holes in them and no stains. The real wood veneer has some scuffs and scratches on it, but they’re all quite shallow and I believe that they shall respond well to Old English. Under the grill of each speaker is to be found Tannoy beauty, aside from a little dust, they look new. As to the drivers, wow, are they well built and some of the best looking I’ve ever seen.

Now, don’t kill me just yet, this isn't a perfect find. I’m afraid I must say that one of the drivers is in dire need of assistance. One concentric driver is perfect as near as I can tell, but the other has the Hash of Doom. Id est, the 15” woofer cone has some serious voice coil rub … Curses! Sadly, the foam surround also has a slit in it. :cry:

So, if anyone managed to get to this point through this terribly long post, could you please offer up information about these Tannoy Berkeleys; I’m really quite clueless about them other than Tannoy builds speakers in the UK, which the label tells anyways. Most importantly, can anyone please tell me if and where I can get this one driver repaired? From what I could hear with the one, these are something special.

Still, if I had to say, I do believe I very much lucked out. :thmbsp:

Thank you very much,
- JP

Ahem....................



:worthless


BTW, serious congrats are due. You had some fairly major scores., like the $10 Infinitys, but this takes the cake.

How'd you like to double your money???

Just kidding. But it does seem like there's getting to be a lot of gear out there again. Lots of very decent scores after a long winter drought. Let's hope more folks get those nice HT in a box and get rid of those nasty old Tannoys, JBLs, Altecs, Marantzes, etc, etc.

And tube gear! Well, let's just hope we get to it before the kids use the Mullards as toss bombs :yes:

:ntwrthy: :ntwrthy: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

Pardon me while I clean up the mess from my drool.

You cut the price of the HPM's I found for Rich in Tucson in HALF!!

and the Tannoys!!!!

Well, the Karma has certainly been floating around this weekend!!

Regards,

Bart

charivari, you hit a jackpot!

TANNOY SPK, BERKELEY (PAIR)
Description:
Manufacture Years: 1964 - 1969
Additional Information:
Retail
MSRP: $1,300.00

my dream 'find' ...

I have been trying to have that happen to me for 15 years - specifically with Tannoys! Nice find you lucky dog!!!!

The vc rub is because the surrounds are shot on those HPD drivers. Get the surrounds replaced - GordonW here can probably do it for you. The size is not standard, so the special order surrounds cost a bit more, but worth doing for sure.


signed,
jealous

Packrat, I do believe you are right. I figured it was something wrong with the voice coil because the foam surrounds appeared intact aside from being shiny, having some odd flat dents, and the slice. However, when I push just at the top of the cone, the hash is gone. I think that while I'm awaiting a reply to my PM to Gordon, I'll rotate the woofer and see if that does anything. And hey, if this find could happen for me, then maybe next weekend will have an even better pair waiting for you. These speakers certainly do seem to have been built to last.

Bolly, would that book of yours happen to contain an approxiamete going price for these currently? I tend to feel taken unless I get a bargain of at least 90% off normal going price. Also, your dates seem a little bit off seeing how the inspection stamp inside the cabinet seemed to read 1971, though the last digit was very blurry.

Mech986, I had the same reaction when I discovered I could buy these for $40. Heck, I felt mostly like that when I found out I had a $40 pair of HPM-100s in good acoustic condition.

And for Andyman, here's your pics. Sorry about the image quality, I've not had much luck in finding a good digital camera at the thrifts.




Does anybody know the specifications for these? I can't seem to find frequency response and like information.

Thank you all very much for the replies, they've made me very happy.
- JP

Without knowing the measurements of your Berkeleys, they seem to bear a striking resemblance to these Studio Monitor Tannoys, which I was fortunate to hear at the AK Fest. The specs are on subsequent pages, so you can compare size of cabs, driver numbers, etc. Please, let us know what you find.

Here is the link to the Tannoy product page for the System 15 DMT's, a fine speaker. If yours is closely related to this one, it is a bargain at 40X the price.

I've done a fair bit of searching for info on these Berkeleys and aside from becoming depressed due to all the audiofoolery to be found about Tannoys (it seems impossible to get good sound from these without spending thousands upon thousands of dollars for special cabinets blessed by Tibetan monks during an eclipse, surrounds made from the foreskin of a virgin Southern Mongolian Foozbotham, etc, etc) I found a good website on these

There I was able to find the information I was looking for (such as the frequency response being 30 Hz to 20 kHz) as well as some advertisement information.




Unfortunately, I discovered Speakerbits.com, which sells the appropriate surrounds, but for a ridiculous $AUD 244.00 (~$ 346.48). No way I'm going that route. Does anyone know of any realistic means to repair my bad woofer that concerns practical application rather than audiophile black magic? I just want to listen to and enjoy these, not pretend that an extra $1000 will give me that last 0.0012% performance.

Thanks,
JP

Charivari,

I don't think you need to indulge in black magic in order to get the Tannoys singing. You can probably enjoy them in the original cabinets as long as you get the surrounds changed. But most people think that you can get significant improvement by building new, sturdier cabinets for the drivers. The original cabinets are not properly braced and tend to be too lively, at least according to many people who regard Tannoys as one of the best drivers around.

You can also get non-original surrounds, but again, the conventional wisdom says they are not quite as good as the original. But if you don't want to invest a lot of money in these non-original is probably the way to go. Of course, if you decide to get rid of these in the future, an investment in original surrounds now will reflect in the price you will get on Ebay later on...

Oh, and 244 AUS$ is about 185 US$ according to an online currency converter.

I hope you will get to enjoy your Tannoys,

M

If you're not going to do them right, don't do anything. I'd be happy to take them off your hands as is and they will be restored correctly.

BTW, please do not use Old English on them.

Charivari said:

....
Bolly, would that book of yours happen to contain an approxiamete going price for these currently? I tend to feel taken unless I get a bargain of at least 90% off normal going price. Also, your dates seem a little bit off seeing how the inspection stamp inside the cabinet seemed to read 1971, though the last digit was very blurry....

Click to expand...

In the current condition, going rate on ebay seems be around $800 to $1000 for the drivers only. The Orion dates can be a little off here and there - there might be a date stamped on the crossover or the drivers. These were 2nd in line below the Arden for the 15s - but the Ardens are large boxes. Don't worry about the cabinets - the advice to toss the original cabinets (IMHO) is a bit overblown. Yes, better, heavier, cabinets will probably sound better, but these do not sound awful in the original cabinets - I doubt that the difference is as great as many people write about. Additional bracing inside the stock cabinet could help. Sometimes I think people go a bit 'overboard' in the audiophile tweeks/mods/DIY bit in order to emulate some current hi-end trend (like 2" thick corian cabinet walls, which would be great, but do you want 300lb speakers?) when the normal way of things from 30 years ago works just fine. Balance is the key - maximizing performance vs. cost/effort/weight/size etc..... The Berlelys have good balance.

Charivari said:

.....Does anybody know the specifications for these? I can't seem to find frequency response and like information....

Click to expand...

They were reveiwed by Richard Heyser in Audio magazine in 1977 or so - I have a copy somewhere. (Check your local library - I'll look for it but it's a photocopy.) He liked them, but as always when he measured speakers he found some flaws - but put into context, he also measured and heard flaws in Quad ESL67s - he had high standards.

As for me finding them.....if I could get out more to hunt them down I might find a pair. I ran into a fellow at a local thrift who claimed to find a pair at a garage sale. The story was that the seller said to him "well, at least I sold them this year" - he had tried to sell them at previous years garage sales with no buyers!

Enjoy them, or sell them on eBay - either way they are a very good find.

Well, after another day and some more time to reflect, some of my opinions have changed slightly. My later posts yesterday were after I had become greatly disenchanted about these speakers after reading through the Tannoy Yahoo group, fan websites, and the like. It’s hard to believe that some people will swear that solid marble cabinets are an absolute necessity for the HPD385 and that anything less should be thrown away after being cursed by a Voodoo priest.

After more reading and consideration of the above posts, I’ve become more willing to consider what I had previously regarded as extreme measures. I still have a hard time believing the bits about the OEM surrounds and how they supposedly sound better. Sorry, but I don’t understand how an old, and possibly not much better chunk of foam is worth ~$100 per driver when it appears there are some appropriately sized replacements for only a few dollars.

Most here who post on some new speaker find or another don’t hesitate a second to throw on some generic foam surrounds on their latest finds and then praise the sound. What is it that makes Tannoy speakers, and only Tannoys, supposedly so requiring of $200 foam donuts? Is it because of the typical inane things audiophiles tend to get into when all else is accounted for, but they still want more out of their system? Or is there a real reason for this, such as the necessity of the 15” driver to reproduce bass and midrange right up to 1000 Hz? I think I can understand the need with this latter part for something other than generic surrounds, but are the OEMs that much better?

This is an important consideration for me, because it will determine my next step with these speakers. Do I spend around $100 – parts, labor, and shipping - (if I can even afford it after I pay this month’s rent) to have GordonW professionally refoam these with non-OEM substitute foams, provided they pass muster. Or do I try to save up my pennies and raid the couch cushions and go for the ~$220 - $240 route of OEM surrounds for my “$40” speakers. The added cost would be for Gordon’s labor, if he’s willing, because there’s no way I’d trust myself with $200 worth of fragile foam. The third option would be to go the cheap route until I’m out of college and can possibly afford to redo these with the “right” surrounds.

Still, at $40, these Tannoys have already fallen into the top 5 of my most expensive audio purchases – ever. The cost of repairing these with the OEM surrounds could cover nearly three months worth of groceries, over half a month’s rent, and heck, bring my total investment in them over 2/3 of what I paid for my pick-up.

Is there anyone on this board who’s had firsthand experience in the possible sonic differences between OEM and non-OEM replacement surrounds on Tannoys? I would like to know if there are definite improvements and if it is thus worth the added cost to go NOS OEM surrounds (alphabet soup time).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a different note, no F1nut, I did not use Old English on these, though I do not understand your dislike of the stuff. OE makes an excellent, IMHO, stop-gap measure for wood work that is beyond general help, but not worth the added effort to make a full-blown effort at refinishing. As with all things speakers, I try to avoid doing anything that cannot be undone. OE can be simply undone with some lacquer thinner, which appears to be the first step in pretty much every mention of cabinet refinishing I’ve encountered.

At any rate, when I mentioned the OE, I had no real idea of what it was that I had found. I recognized the name, but not the value. After the initial posts here and after some more reading on my part, I decided that I best do these right. Though, that will entail a bit of learning on my part to correct the flaws I’ve found on the cabinet.

So, if you or anyone else reading this has any suggestions, how best would I go about bringing this walnut veneer back up to par? There are some shallow scratches and a couple of elongated dings. There’s a barely visible water spot about 3”-4” in diameter on the top of one, and half a glass ring on the other. There’re some scuffs as well as three small (less than 0.5” chips on the edge and corner of one). I also found some traces of paint on both, as though they rubbed up against something painted.

Any help here would be appreciated; it’s about time I learned how.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Packrat, I will admit that I was quite surprised about those mentions I found, and you referred to, that the Berkeley cabinets are best suited for the land fill. Simply put, these are some of the best made cabinets I’ve encountered in my vintage speaker finds, after my solitary AR-1. (I do believe that thing could survive just about anything.) The baffles I measured to be 1.25” and tap testing around the rest of the cabinet and comparing it to the sound of the 1” thick cabs on my Q2s revealed that the remainder seems to be around 3/4” for the most part.

Thanks about the hint for finding that review article, btw. I think my university’s library may have ‘Audio’ from that era; they do have nearly complete collections of both ‘Stereo Review’ and ‘High Fidelity.’

As to your EBay comment, I cannot sell these there. To put it simply, I have an absolute hatred of those who hound garage sales and thrift stores with only greed in their hearts. Too many times I’ve missed out by just a few moments as somebody carries out a goodie while bragging about how much they can get for it on EBay. I cannot bring myself to do something like that, as it goes against my vintage audio morality and, imho, violates the ‘faith.’ (Those who buy up the odd piece just for parting it out fall in just behind EBay power sellers, though I do forgive them with trashed stuff.) I only get my finds based on finding out how they sound, for the thrill of repair, or sometimes out of sake of novelty. If they’re an upgrade to what I have, they go into my system. If not, I give them or sell them to friends and family for what they cost me. So, while these Tannoys may be worth over $1000 as you say, they’re worth $40 to me because I’d be hard pressed to be able to sell them for a profit, at least so soon after getting them.

Well, since you've already just missed out on one pair, I should think that their availability in your area has been proven and thus that others will crop up. If I luck out again with another pair of Tannoys (lightning could strike twice), I'll be sure to get ahold of you.

Thanks all for the comments, I really appreciate it. If anyone has possible answers to the questions I posed, please feel free to join in. There is always something new to be learned and I am certainly ignorant about a great many things.

- JP

Wow, mmetsala, nearly two years away. I'm honored that you chose my thread to be the first to reply to after your hiatus. Welcome back.

And yes, you're right about my faulty currency conversion. The Speakerbits website said that the conversion rate was $1 : $AUS 1.42, but I messed up and swapped them by accident calculating $1.42 : $1 AUS. Thanks for correcting my error, I may not have noticed it otherwise and concreted my misconception.

- JP

As far as I know and have heard, the surrounds must be done correctly. This even includes applying the glue the proper way! Don't use cheap foam surrounds, don't do a hack job by getting "anyone" to do it for you - get it fixed "properly" by someone who knows Tannoys. They are dual concentric and the surrounds are critical - you may wreck the voice coil and thus the driver if it's not done right.

Someone I know said it would probably cost about $500.00 to fix / refoam an average pair.

On the other hand the driver might already be wrecked.... please, please take it to a professional.

Some comments:

Don't attempt a half-arsed repair with these drivers. It's not worth messing with them this way because if you damage them, you're going to be out a lot of money. Furthermore, the driver is worth taking it all the way. I'm glad you purchased original parts and are having them redone correctly. Just make sure the person doing the job understands that there is a specific process for this work and that these are not a pair of JBLs or something.

Click to expand...

...it is true that there is a specific process for refoaming these. Failure to do so correctly will result in decreased performance and efficiency of the driver.

Click to expand...

.

They're worth fixing....

$500!!!! :sigh:

I feel like I've been given an exotic and expensive pet. I have a responsiblity to take care of it, but I can't afford the vet's bill.

Oi, that's a heckuva lot.

About the professional, are you saying that GordonW doesn't qualify? Do you have someone else in mind?

I'm having a hard time believing Tannoy is still in business. No matter how good of drivers they make, if they're so ridiculously difficult and expensive to maintain, I can't believe people tolerate it.

- JP

I am absolutely NOT making any comments about GordonW's repairing ability or the expertise of ANYONE on this board! I have the utmost respect for all AK members and their amazing abilities to repair (heck, find, scrounge, fix, revive!) an amazing amount of equipment.

Actually I did not even read GordonW's post above.....

Please don't "put those words into my mouth" so to speak! I don't want anyone to get mad at me!

I'm just saying that to ensure these will not be wrecked, you have to have someone who either has sucessfully worked on Tannoy's before or / and can follow the specific instructions from Tannoy themselves to sucessfuly repair the driver. Using genuine parts.

I'd hate to see them get tossed into the dumpster as the drivers are very, very expensive and rare to replace.

Incidentally, I have no idea who has worked on Tannoys before. I can't reccomend anyone at all. Sorry.

But I'll bet GordonW has the expertise.... maybe you just need the "kit" and GordonW's help....

Tannoy's can last a long, long time but you're talking vintage speakers here. Many people seem to love these and are willing to spend a measely $500.00 or so to get them fixed. I have heard the modern Tannoy "Prestige" series and they have amazing sound. They are also $13,800.00.

Note to GordonW: I apologise if my previous post may have insulted you or your abilities. I meant no harm or slight to you. Actually I had not even read your post and I was not referring to your abilities in any way what-so-ever.

And that apology goes to all AK'ers.

Sincerely,

Gary

Whoa there Gary, I'm afraid I'm the one who worded my post wrong. GordonW didn't post, I was referencing a couple of PMs I've exchanged with him. My wording in response to your post was all wrong, I meant professional as in professional Tannoy repairer (much as you did), not Professional of Things in General. (Nod to Thomas Carlyle.)

You don't need to apologize (I hope Gordon thinks so, though I'm still fairly inexperienced here), I do.

- JP

There seems to be a lot of 'percieved hocus-pocus' floating around out there, WRT repairing Tannoy drivers...

While yes, they are dual-concentrics, they are no harder, for an experienced tech, to refoam than say, a JBL LE15. As for the glue- if by "applying the glue the right way", you're referring to "putting the surrounds BACK on the cone on the SAME side that the old ones came from), then yes, there is something to that. But, the adhesives Tannoy used were not any sort of "black magic", and neither were the materials they used... it's just a matter of matching the properties, as closely as possible, with any replacement parts.

And, the nice thing, is that it's usually relatively easy to know if a replacement foam surround is compatible in a case like this. As long as the new foam surround is "soft" enough (ie, has a low enough stiffness to NOT raise the resonance frequency of the driver above factory specs), it has the right geometry (ie, the roll is the right size and shape), and it fits the cone and basket properly, then it will perform properly...

Regards,
Gordon.

GordonW said:

As for the glue- if by "applying the glue the right way", you're referring to "putting the surrounds BACK on the cone on the SAME side that the old ones came from), then yes, there is something to that.

Click to expand...

Gordon, I have no idea what exactly "applying the glue the right way" actually means. This is just what I have read. Thinking that this was important, I thought I would mention this in this thread.

That's all I know (which, I admit, is a bit more than "nothing").

Sorry.

I'll shut up now.

Charivari,

Unfortunately all the info I have on Tannoy surrounds vs. non-original is "hearsay". I have Tannoy dual-concentrics myself, but they are of more recent vintage and I haven't had to change the surrounds. All I know, from reading the Tannoy mailing list, is that people say non-original surrounds are not quite right and change the sound for the worse. Tom at Speakerbits can probably elaborate more, even though he's obviously biased. But from what I've heard, you can perfectly change the surrounds by yourself, no need to have some do it for you.

When considering the cost of the surrounds keep in mind that these are a pair of really high performace speakers. If you do them right you might stick with them forever. And you will have had a bargain of a lifetime. Just look at the prices of these on Ebay and also the prices of new Tannoy speakers using basically the same technology (dual-concentric).

Just remember, these are seriously great speakers.

M