Dual 1229Q will not spin up no matter what I do

Hi everyone.

I've spent a few hours these past days trying to get someone's Dual 1229Q to work and at this point I'm completely stumped.

The turntable is in good condition cosmetically, it does not appear to have suffered any abuse. All of the mechanisms are in working order (ie. it'll pick up the arm at the end of an LP if I spin the platter by hand, etc.), the motor runs, the strobe lights up, etc. etc. etc.

But it Just. Won't. Spin.

We've already gone over it several times looking at the mechanism from all angles, we've cleaned everything thoroughly several times, I've even swapped my 1219's idler wheel for his to rule that out, and that wasn't the cause - the 1229Q still doesn't spin up and my 1219 works perfectly with his wheel. So it's not that either.

The speed selector moves freely and appears to operate properly, the spring that holds the idler bracket to the motor pulley does not look stretched or otherwise 'off'; there is no slippage at the motor pulley (I've tried stopping it with two fingers and I can't), the idler and platter spin freely on their own, or at least appear to.

I can even press down on the idler bracket in the direction of the platter and it still won't spin up. We've looked at the service manual. We just don't know what else to do. It doesn't make sense to either of us - all of the intervening parts and mechanisms appear to be working properly.

I've looked at the thing from underneath while it's (not) spinning and have noticed that movement stops at the idler-platter contact point - the motor spins, the idler spins, the platter doesn't. It looks at though it's slipping (it is), but we've cleaned the platter thoroughly and it's still got the known-good (and clean) idler in it. I can push the platter by hand so it's not frozen stuck.

Like I said, completely out of ideas. I was the one who recommended the purchase (...) so if someone could help out a bit I'd truly, TRULY appreciate it.

Thanks in advance and take care,

D

So you are getting good contact with the idler against the platter and the motor spindle???

I thought that perhaps that stepped plastic switching segment speed changer might be broken; it's a common problem, but if you're getting good contact either the motor, spindle, or idler is slipping. Is the brass pulley secure on the motor shaft? Perhaps it's free wheeling under load??

it has to be with the idler not contacting the platter somehow . or something is slipping .you probably guessed that already . as a test you may want to spin the platter power off and see if the motor turns .that is of course if it doesn't have solenoids and such . did you clean the spindle ?

Andyman said:

Is the brass pulley secure on the motor shaft? Perhaps it's free wheeling under load??

Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in. I've actually held the spinning pulley with two fingers while the motor was spinning and I'm pretty sure there's no slippage there - I can get the whole motor to stall if I press down enough, but the pulley appears to be tight on the shaft.

Hmmmm. If the motor turns then there has to be slippage at one of the two interfaces, pulley/idler or idler/platter.
and you've checked both of them?

Too strange :scratch2:

Did you disassemble and clean/grease the speed selector? Even if it seeme to move freely it may be keeping the idler form making proper contact.

Any news??

No, sorry. I don't have the turntable with me and we're both quite busy weekdays, so it'll be at least until next weekend. Thanks for everything, I'll keep you guys posted. Cheers!

Is there a spring that pulls the idler toward the platter or the motor shaft? If so, it could be weak.

Tom

Alright, so we were able to work on the turntable some more. Still no success, but we keep ruling stuff out.

The problem is that it looks as though we've already ruled everything out :sigh:.

Anyway, first of all, just so I could say I'd tried it, I took my 1219's platter with me. Swapped it for his, no luck. So the platter is fine. I know it'd have been really strange for that to have been the cause, but...

So the problem appears to lie somewhere between the speed selector and the platter bearing.

We partially took apart the speed selector, everything looked fine (as in, not bent -including the teethed half-wheel wedge-shaped thingy that has to be exactly at 90º- or broken), cleaned the pieces we removed thoroughly then put it together again... nothing. The reason we didn't take it apart completely was (I think) that we couldn't figure out 100% how it went together past a certain point, so we thought we'd err on the side of caution.

Does anyone know how to completely disassemble the speed selector on a 1229Q?

Also just to say I'd done it, I marked the position on the little screw just to the left of the pitch wheel - it appears to adjust its range or 'zero', so after marking it I moved it all the way to one side and the other. No luck. left it where it was.

Then (and this was a first for me, I'd been told not to even think about it but it wasn't that terrible) we took a look at the platter bearing. As in, we actually dropped the bracket that holds it, took it out, took it apart, cleaned it in a pan of boiling water, lubed it and then put it in again.

You'd think, after this... but no . At least now I know how to do it on my 1219. BTW do you use grease or oil on these?

I also pushed and tugged at the motor while it was running to see whether maybe it was, ..I don't know, out of position or something? Just to see what'd happen. Nothing happened.

Finally we also tried a couple more replacement springs - just to see what'd happen. Shorter, more springy, less springy... no difference.

Also, on my way home I started thinking... could there be anything bent or out of place (doesn't look like the latter) in such a way as to cause the idler to contact the platter at the wrong angle? Could this be a problem, what do you think?

The thing is that IIRC the idler bracket is cast metal, not the bent-sheet type usually found in cheaper turntables that could be bent... so I don't know.

Like I said, the platter is NOT stuck and can be freely moved by hand with just a soft push through all of this. I can also confirm that the problem hasn't 'moved', i.e., it's still the idler contacting the platter -at least that's what it looks like- but not actually pushing it.

Open to any and all ideas and suggestions, as always, and will appreciate every one of them.

Thanks for reading and chiming in. Cheers!

Here is the problem. Pretty much unique to the 1229Q, but I've seen a few 1229's as well. Remove the platter. Remove the idler wheel. That pin that the idler rotates on is on a bracket that has to move back and forth in that metal housing. You will find that it doesn't move. Look at your 1219 - it's bracket does move back and forth. What's happened is the grease that they used has frozen up. Remove the E clip and two plastic pieces and heat that housing with a soldering iron. You need the heat to break the dried grease's bond. The bracket slides out the bottom of the housing. Clean and LIGHTLY oil - clean the housing, too. Reassemble and you will be fine. The idler will now pivot into position when turned on.

Dress the edge of your idler wheel as well.

As to an earlier comment about messing with springs - don't ever do that. You are addressing the symptom not correcting the problem!

Bill. Thanks!! I'll take a look at what you suggest. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me without looking at the turntable but I'm sure it will when I do. I'll post back then.

And I know what you mean about the springs! It was just so we could rule it out. The original spring is still there and looks perfect, so it'd have really surprised me if it'd been the culprit - plus I know that in many idler-drive designs the prings are only there to bring the idler into position, not to actually exert much force on it. I know the Lenco L75 works this way and I figure it's the case here, too.

Thanks again. I'll keep you guys posted.

Take care!

Been looking at pictures of the wheel & bracket assembly on Google - it looks like you're referring to this?



(it's someone else's image so it may not fit your exact description, but it looks like it is at least close)

Bill, if I may - one more question for when I take apart the platter bearing on MY 'table to clean & lube: oil or grease?

Thanks!

In looking at the cross section that you posted, yes - you are in the correct place.

As for oil, everyone has differing opinions, which is fine. I use a little high speed turbine oil. I use absolutely no grease on these - at all. Grease hardens, and attracts dust and dirt. A fine oil does not.

Right now I have liquid Vaseline (I usually use that on turntable bearings and it works well, but my other turntables are traditional 'bucket' bearings, not ball races like this one) and motorcycle transmission oil (?). Would you suggest either one over the other.

Thank you so much for all this invaluable help, Bill. Seriously.

I have no opinion as I've used neither. Do let us know how surgery goes. I remove those 2 plastic pieces from the bracket so that they do not get damaged from the heat of the soldering iron.

Bill, YOU'RE A MAN'S MAN. This is done. Fixed. It was exactly what you said.

Thank you so, so, so very much for this.

The two parts were stuck together. I forgot my iron so I had to use a little ingenuity - first I removed the E-clip and put a drop of alcohol on top of the pivot to see whether it'd go down - haha fat chance of that.

So I ended up using a variation on that technique which I'm pretty sure would've had the engineers at Dual reaching for their guns: I did the same thing again, but this time set it on fire. NO SERIOUSLY. I did, and while the flame lasted (a few seconds, it was only a drop of alcohol and it didn't run anywhere else... fortunately) I moved the two parts to soften the grease. I did this a couple of times and was able to remove the bracket through the bottom, clean it properly, re-lube with just a drop of oil and put everything back together again.

It worked first try.

So, again... thank you very very much. I would've never figured it out on my own.

You set your Dual on fire? The ironic thing is that I recently got a 1229Q in that had been in a house fire - reminded me of that old Marantz 2270 burned up but worked ad...

But, all's well that ends well. Glad that we could help!

Nice repair and good story!:thmbsp: