The old way of thinking

When I was young, the common wisdom of the day was that one should allow 50% of one's budget for a stereo to the speakers alone. The remaining 50% was to be divided up among the various components.

Now, I didn't question this at the time, and I guess it seemed like appropriate wisdom.

However, in the many years since then, I have noticed a couple of things that perhaps I would not have noticed if I had not had the opportunity to listen to a number of vintage systems and speakers.

Primarily, the eye-opening (or ear-opening?) thing I have noticed is that some speakers 'like' some receivers and amplifiers better than others. And there is no particular rhyme or reason for it. Not the efficiency or size of the speakers, and not the specs or style (tube or solid state) of the amplification.

Sure, low-powered amps require efficient speakers to power them to reasonable volume levels, but other than that, there just doesn't seem to be any way for me to tell, based on price, what speakers are going to sound good with what electronic equipment.

Case in point; I have a set of Fisher speakers that I have rebuilt with new drivers and a crossover I designed myself. Simple things with an 8 inch woofer and a 1 inch dome tweeter, acoustic suspension.

When I finished them, I was disappointed to find that I did not like the way they sounded. Not at all. I tried them with a Luxman high-powered solid state amp, a single-ended tube amp, and a couple of t-amps and other such devices. Nothing. I was about to give up on them when I paired them with my ancient Harman/Kardon 50+ and they came to life.

I have since tried them with a more powerful Harman/Kardon 730 receiver and nope, they're back to sucking again. Seems they 'like' that receiver and no others (so far).

I've got other speakers that seem to work the same way. A set of Klipsch KG2 speakers that like my Pioneer SX-727, but not my Luxman. They like the SE tube amp, but not my Voice of Music PP tube amp.

I have a set of Pioneer CS-77 speakers that like the Voice of Music PP tube amp, and sound reasonably good with my LePai T-amp.

And so on.

Since that discovery, I just keep seeing this more and more. And I begin to realize that simply picking a set of speakers for a given setup based on price alone is probably not the way to go. Expensive or inexpensive, you have to audition them with the equipment you plan to pair them with. And to do that, of course, you have to have the other equipment FIRST. Not last.

Anyway, just a couple of idle observations on a late night while I wait for some servers I provide support for to stop misbehaving so I can go to bed...

Your thoughts?

When I first heard the variety of speakers that I would eventually own, it was with the variety of amp I would eventually own and even the CD player I would eventually own. I never forgot that day that made such an impression on me and I didn't mind spending more on the amp than the speakers. I won't say it turns the paradigm on its ear. It just worked for me.

I have also experienced this, Wigwam. Why does a particular speaker 'like' a certain amp? How much a part of the equation does the room play in this scenario? Sometimes I've found that to be the demonstrably defining factor, but other times a given combo seems to work well almost anywhere. Discovering even a modicum of unexpected synergy is one aspect that keeps the hobby interesting.

Take any well designed 2-way budget Brit Box (ported or sealed enclosure) from around 1983-85 onwards...and the Source First , Amp second, Speakers last hierachy begins to make sense.

I am surly the tin ear here, or maybe I just do not have enough speaker and amp combos to try, but I have not experienced that.

Shelly_D

Synergy in-between speakers & amplifier is well known, but which combo is the unknown until discovered. This places the unwary at risk in selling a stellar pice of equipment & especially so when like new condition.

The greatest synergy I found is this crazy Fisher 400 & Klipsch Forte. I almost wrote off the Fisher then dicovered one speaker phased wrong. I since color coded the wires. The synergy is dreamy smooth, detailed and rich with just the right harmonic structure and air with a black background in-between instruments & voices. I also say just the right combination of tubes takes the sonics up say two levels. I am even opposed to pump up the power supply as at times just a little AC (not hum) produces some interesting low level IMD products. Ever read about direct filament power triodes sounding better with AC vs DC powered filaments?

When performing DIY the same synergy in-between components exists, but I can measure (see it). An example is an unpleasing harmonic structure from a component then when the next amp stage is driven, a cancelling effect can come forth removing some of the trash & blooming into a pleasing result.

A further example is rolling tubes. Certain combination seems to add up more than a simple 'sum of the parts' should perform. That is why one cannot say this tube sounds bad unless one is specific to identify the amp or receiver plus be specific to the circuit (tube position).

This has happened to me too but when I looked for the reason and data was available (schematics, speaker impedance curves, etc) I was able to trace most issues to the match between the source and the load. Speakers can be devilish little things to drive correctly. Add to that how they interact with your room (ie, where the dips and peaks are in the room response) and you have a recipe for a fair amount of unexpected sound quality issues.

A little experimenting is always a good thing. Another reason to own a few sets of speakers and amps.

I don't think the amplifier section of the amp or receiver has as much to do with the sound as does the tone controls . Just because the tone controls are set to flat does not mean so .

The other thing is the room itself which might color the sound as much as anything . But I would think that speakers are still the most important link and should be given the most consideration .

zebra03 said:

I don't think the amplifier section of the amp or receiver has as much to do with the sound as does the tone controls . Just because the tone controls are set to flat does not mean so .

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Well, that's true enough, but it still doesn't explain why the same amp or receiver would sound better or worse with different speakers, since the tone controls would be the same with any speakers hooked up to it.

The other thing is the room itself which might color the sound as much as anything . But I would think that speakers are still the most important link and should be given the most consideration .

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I'm not saying speakers are not important or should not be given serious thought. Just noting that buying on price and reputation for speakers might not be the best way to go, since you still don't know how they will sound with a given amp / receiver (or in a particular room if you want to go that way).

Quite often, we see requests on AK to "recommend a set of speakers for me in the XYZ price range." I'm not sure how anyone could, really. Too many variables. All we can do is name the speakers we like the best, and who knows if they will work for that person with their room/amp combo?

Wigwam Jones said:

Well, that's true enough, but it still doesn't explain why the same amp or receiver would sound better or worse with different speakers, since the tone controls would be the same with any speakers hooked up to it.



I'm not saying speakers are not important or should not be given serious thought. Just noting that buying on price and reputation for speakers might not be the best way to go, since you still don't know how they will sound with a given amp / receiver (or in a particular room if you want to go that way).

Quite often, we see requests on AK to "recommend a set of speakers for me in the XYZ price range." I'm not sure how anyone could, really. Too many variables. All we can do is name the speakers we like the best, and who knows if they will work for that person with their room/amp combo?

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I guess the best any of us can get is guesstimates until we can actually here the final set-up in the room we will be using .

Low damping factor (high output impedance) and lack of negative feedback will make an amplifier (far) more sensitive to a reactive load; virtually all loudspeakers are reactive loads (i.e., their impedance varies with frequency due to frequency-dependent changes in capacitative and inductive reactance).

The worst offenders (so to speak) are, e.g., single-ended triode amplifiers with no global (nor, usually, local) negative feedback. Such amplifiers are extremely "empathatic" to their loads and will require careful matching with speakers for best results. The golden ear types might refer to this as "synergy" (or even "magic"). The underlying root cause is pretty straightforward.

Amplifiers can be designed such that they are fairly immune to the impedance vagaries of their anticipated loads; most amplifiers today are so designed. Some of us tend to feel that the cure is sometimes worse than the disease.

Bottom line. It remains hard to beat empiricism; I encourage everyone to listen, listen, listen to as many different things as possible (and, ideally, not just for a few minutes per component/system). In one's own environment, with program material that is very familiar to one is the best way to do it (and that, truly, is why I have a basement full of this junk).

I'll bet most folks - even those who shake their heads at 'audiophiles' - don't buy a car on the basis of its specs; I reckon most folks want to look at it, sit in it, and drive it before making a decision.

It's fun to mix and match. I have heard a few surprising combinations. Listening is always the bottom line. I don't find the technical aspects very entertaining.

mhardy6647 said:

I'll bet most folks - even those who shake their heads at 'audiophiles' - don't buy a car on the basis of its specs; I reckon most folks want to look at it, sit in it, and drive it before making a decision.

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Excellent point. Imagine someone saying "Recommend a car for me in the XYZ price range!" So you tell them what you like, what your experiences are, and everyone adds their own experiences (usually conflicting, right?) and the original poster runs out, buys the car, and then complains. Not enough power. Not enough headroom. Pedals are too small. Radio button placement is crazy. GPS doesn't work very well. Etc.

Point being that we're not all the same height. We don't all have feet the same size. We don't all drive the same distance, or over the same roads. What some people find ideal, others loathe. So what would be the point of asking others what car one should buy?

Then apply that same point (as you did) to speakers. Same result. Yes, buy XYZ brand speakers, model ABC, and position them on these stands, sit X number of feet away, and you will be in audio nirvana. Then they do it, and report back that it sounds like a donkey in a wooden crate falling down a flight of stairs. Well, I don't have his ears, his system, his room, his taste in music OR speakers, and so on. So how could I recommend ANY speakers to him?

If speakers all sounded the way they were intended to sound on all equipment, there'd be no problem. But in my limited experience, they just don't. Some sound better on one system than another. And I do not know to predict what the system will be that they will sound better on.

I've heard slight differences between amps when I've switched them out but never anything major,probably cause my gear is all solid state.

just dave said:

I've heard slight differences between amps when I've switched them out but never anything major,probably cause my gear is all solid state.

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Most of mine is also solid state, but the differences I have heard have been profound. I was ready to dump one receiver as worthless until I heard it with a particular set of speakers it 'liked', and the later found another in the same category, now I love it long time. Can't explain, but I've certainly experienced it.

If you are a collector based audio guy, have the time and space for it, enjoy this process....a moderate learning level will keep it all self sustaining and you will grow towards your learned goal. If you don't have time for it....to heck with purchasing much and get involved with other audio guys in your area to hear and learn from. (Wise for all mostly and the earlier the better.) Receiver based, component based....whatever, no substitute for listening time and purging while realizing settling in (and enjoying what you have "now") is the incremental goal....if even half your learning is evident, you have no excuse to be listening to crap!
Piles are awesome to behold....eventually they all start making sucking sound though.

I just picked up an amp/speaker A/B selector. Now I can really drive myself crazy. :screwy:

Good thing it has only two amp inputs.

Same experience here. Hooked up a pair of DCM TF-600s to my Yamaha CR2020 and they sounded awful. Unbalanced, no dynamic range to speak of, poor separation. Then I hooked them up to my Sansui 8080db and they turned into songbirds sounding wonderful. Tried them with my Marantz 2250 and 2238b and they were better than with the Yamaha, but just ok. Then I took my Polk 7s and hooke dthem up to the Yamaha and they sounded much better than the DCMs. Hooked the Polks up to the Marantzs and they sounded great. Have not tried them with the Sansui yet because I fell too much in love with the way the DCMs sound with it.
So when I went auditioning new speakers for my main rig I tried to have the shop drive the speakers of interest with something similar to what I had since obivously I could do home demos.

My brother had a McIntosh SS amp with a low damping factor and it would either sound wonderful or like total ass depending on whether it worked well with the speakers or not. Higher damping factors are one of the things I pay attention to when purchasing an amp.

I went the route of buying an amp that could drive any speakers, and ended up selling it, because it was overkill for the speakers I ended up liking, and didn't sound as good as some lower-powered options.

Now I go out and audition speakers, and if I like them, I find the right amplification for them. When I audition them, I try a variety of amps so I have a pretty good idea what they want. For example, my Kef LS-50s sounded best when I auditioned them with a German T+A audio 1530r amp. After trying every amp here on them, I've decided to just buy what sounded best with them...that nice German amp.

All that said, I'm source first. If you don't have a good source, you have no idea what's causing the problems in your amp/speaker setup beyond obvious mismatches.