VPI HW19 MKiii upgrade, or bad purchase on my part?

I'm afraid I may have been to hasty in my last purchase. I've had a "MKiv upgrade kit" on order for over 6 months now and am dying to see what all the hype is. That consists of the all acrylic 1 3/8 thick platter with inverted bearing and new belt. I currently have the 7/8 lead/acrylic 10lb platter and although it sounds almost perfect to me, I still need to see what else is out there. Last week I bought the Aries ii platter and inverted bearing, which is 1 3/4 thick acrylic and is about the same weight as mine. I was expecting it to be a lot heavier because of the size, but didn't realize mine had lead in it. Now I don't know what to do. Is it worth making a riser for the armboard and not being able to use my dustcover? (I measured for the platter, but forgot about how high the arm would be). It seems like a lot of work, really just to upgrade the bearing. Is a thicker, same weight platter really going to sound better? Or will the lead be quieter? I know the only way is to try, but I'm hesitant because I liked it before and without a definite upgrade I'm afraid to screw up something good. And what do I use to raise the arm? I was planning on cutting a piece of 3/4 mdf and putting it under the armboard, maybe sandwiching in some cork for extra height if needed. I have the Sumiko ft4 arm that has VTA adjustment right on it.

I don't how much you spent but I it sounds like your current platter is pretty nice. I would personally have saved the money for a new cart in the future or a completely new table. I don't like to upgrade in increments as I feel generally the sound quality upgrade is disproportionate to the money spent. Usually a full upgrade, although a costlier upgrade initially, provides a greater sonic increase in the end for less money in the end if you total all the costs of the incremental approach.

I have the HW-19jr (with AudioQuest PT-6 tonearm) and I'm not going to change a thing. I do use a soft sponge mat on it and it is very quiet. I know it's tempting to upgrade, but the cost to increase performance ratio is way out of whack on this one, IMO.

Wayner

Well, it may not be more massive, but it may be less resonant. Please let is know. I just fired up my markIII. I installed a Grace 707 with a Grado Sonata with Soundsmith level II ruby cantilever. I am much pleased. This table has never sounded better. I have the lead platter too.

I lot of people have written off the HW-19 as old tech, but it is a very solid performer and a bargain at current prices. I wouldn't mine having another.

The upgrade route helps depending on the table. If it already is a great table, you may be disappointed on the level of increase. I had a stock Rega P3 that sounded fine, then I chanced on a deal (read bargin)for a P3 already with the acrylic platter, upgraded motor & spindle bearings and upgraded R300 arm. Difference was night & day. But, if you figure the cost of a new table and then upgrades, you just as well buy a higher end table to begin with.

I think we're all on a similar page, and I think I'm just going to bag the idea alltogether. To me, that table sounds almost perfect, and I think for the work and money involved it's not going to be worth finding out that it doesn't make a audible difference. I really wanted to hear this, but I am happy with it, it's just this stupid internet is so tempting. I don't want a better table anytime soon, there is a lot of reasons why I like this one, so I'm just going to leave it. If I'm going to upgrade tables, it'll be another DIY. Thanks guys for not juicing it up with all the hype. A lot of times the internet makes it sound better just because it costs more.

I payed for the platter almost as much as I did for the whole table with the Lyra cartridge.:drunk: I'll probably sell it to fund a SAMA since my motor is very noisy.

manogeorge said:

I think we're all on a similar page, and I think I'm just going to bag the idea alltogether. To me, that table sounds almost perfect, and I think for the work and money involved it's not going to be worth finding out that it doesn't make a audible difference. I really wanted to hear this, but I am happy with it, it's just this stupid internet is so tempting. I don't want a better table anytime soon, there is a lot of reasons why I like this one, so I'm just going to leave it. If I'm going to upgrade tables, it'll be another DIY. Thanks guys for not juicing it up with all the hype. A lot of times the internet makes it sound better just because it costs more.

I payed for the platter almost as much as I did for the whole table with the Lyra cartridge.:drunk: I'll probably sell it to fund a SAMA since my motor is very noisy.

Click to expand...

In regards to the HW-19 Table, (and probably all others) modifications such as different Platters will have an impact on tonality, and other improvements might be accenting bass respnonse, and high frequency response, dependent upon the materials used.

As far as differences in sound that the one older bearing design provided, versus the newer inverted design, there may be some pros, and cons as to which is actually better. Some would probably say not much in the way of any differences noted. A standard style bearing, like VPI once used is not in some way inheritly flawed. Many high end Tables today still use such Bearing Designs, and it probably all comes down to build quality, implementation of materials used.

Many often claimed that the clear frosted acrylic platters that VPI used were basically sonically inferior to the older lead filled Platters that were used on Tables like the HW-19 (MK-IV) the Aries 1, and some of the TNT Models.

Then there was the VPI "Super Platter", but this has been MIA for quite a few years.

The hot "current" ticket is said to be the Classic Platter, an 18lb machined affair, but again, you would most likely need to implement a taller Armboard, and either a taller Dustcover, a custom whole Table Cover, or eliminate the cover altogether.

These changes will impart tonal changes, but may do little in the way of lowering noise floor, which all high quality Tables strive to accomplish.

Lowering noise floor, and transferrence of noise from Motors, and Bearings will go far to improve fidelity.

And in regards to your Table, and your noted problem of excessive Motor Noise, these Hurst AC Motors can be Oiled, and one can perhaps get lucky with quieter motor operation.

Underneath the Motor Pulley, where the actual Metal Drive Shaft enters the Motor Housing, it is permissible to oil in this area, where the Shaft is held by a bushing. One drop of 40w Motor Oil may solve your noise issues for the time being.

I have the VPI SAMA on my HW-19. It is actually the exact same Hurst AC Motor, housed in its own Case, so with that said, it is not in any way somehow quieter than the stock motor provided it is working properly, but by isolating it apart from the Table's Base, one can expect a slightly lower transferrence of vibration, and noise to the rest of the Table.

"Different" is easy, "better" not so much.
A lateral shift of characteristic sound rather than an actual substantive improvement is just as likely with incremental changes. When prolonged A-B'ing is possible long-term auditioning can usually tell the tale.

markd51 said:

In regards to the HW-19 Table, (and probably all others) modifications such as different Platters will have an impact on tonality, and other improvements might be accenting bass respnonse, and high frequency response, dependent upon the materials used.

As far as differences in sound that the one older bearing design provided, versus the newer inverted design, there may be some pros, and cons as to which is actually better. Some would probably say not much in the way of any differences noted. A standard style bearing, like VPI once used is not in some way inheritly flawed. Many high end Tables today still use such Bearing Designs, and it probably all comes down to build quality, implementation of materials used.

Many often claimed that the clear frosted acrylic platters that VPI used were basically sonically inferior to the older lead filled Platters that were used on Tables like the HW-19 (MK-IV) the Aries 1, and some of the TNT Models.

Then there was the VPI "Super Platter", but this has been MIA for quite a few years.

The hot "current" ticket is said to be the Classic Platter, an 18lb machined affair, but again, you would most likely need to implement a taller Armboard, and either a taller Dustcover, a custom whole Table Cover, or eliminate the cover altogether.

These changes will impart tonal changes, but may do little in the way of lowering noise floor, which all high quality Tables strive to accomplish.

Lowering noise floor, and transferrence of noise from Motors, and Bearings will go far to improve fidelity.

And in regards to your Table, and your noted problem of excessive Motor Noise, these Hurst AC Motors can be Oiled, and one can perhaps get lucky with quieter motor operation.

Underneath the Motor Pulley, where the actual Metal Drive Shaft enters the Motor Housing, it is permissible to oil in this area, where the Shaft is held by a bushing. One drop of 40w Motor Oil may solve your noise issues for the time being.

I have the VPI SAMA on my HW-19. It is actually the exact same Hurst AC Motor, housed in its own Case, so with that said, it is not in any way somehow quieter than the stock motor provided it is working properly, but by isolating it apart from the Table's Base, one can expect a slightly lower transferrence of vibration, and noise to the rest of the Table.

Click to expand...

Having to rebuild a VPI Hurst with shipping damage, I found that it can be easily disassembled for inspection and overhaul. A slightly more involved process than replacement, and breaking the silicone-mounted plate loose and remounting it in JB Weld epoxy as I did can only be an improvement over the stock arrangement.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=499847&page=7

agreeing with Pio here. The Hurst motor can be gone through and improved.
As I do that with most every 3001-001 motor that comes on the later AR tables, and I do that on the early AR tables with the Haydon motor. Polishing the delrin thrust washers, the ends of the shaft well where the delrin washers ride, a polish of the phosphor bronze sleeve with 3 micron paper, lube, and then reset the collar(brass set bushing) so there is absolute minimum up/down movement of the spindle.

I think at most the new platter will be a sideways move. The Platter you have is quite good. Do you have the SDS line controller? This may be something to consider. This unit really makes a big difference. If you are patient you can find a new one on Audiogon for around 875.00. They come up every so often you just have to be ready to pounce. Something else to think about is the new sapphire thrust plate/bearing from Applied Fidelity. much less than the cost of the platters you are looking at. I have talked to a guy that has had this done to his HW-19 and is quite pleased. Results are much quieter noise floor and blacker background. This is my next up grade. If you are handy you can make your own SAMA for under $200 bucks. You have a more than capable arm to work with. If you really want improvement look for an TNT stainless/Delrin platter or go with the new Classic Platter. As far as arm board height you can have one made out of Black acrylic at your local plastics dealer. it will be about twice the thickness of your stock board. I had mine made locally for around $50 bucks. They can also make you a new taller dustcover for around $100/$125. I think the new bearing assy would be the best first move. By the way if you have other questions about the HW-19 the guy to ask is Markd51. He has been very helpful and has started his table from humble beginnings to a first class rig. The good part is, he has it documented very well.
Sturgus
http://appliedfidelity.com/

I had Jim at applied fidelity redo my TNT bearing with a 3/8" ball replacing the 1/4" one and using a sapphire thrust plate. Very nice improvement to the overall ease and quietness of the presentation. If you can't swing the cost for a SDS, the Music Hall speed controller worked well on my HW-19 for about 1/4 the cost. Very accurate and a worthwhile improvement in PRAT.