B&C DE250 and "clones"

winters860 · Oct 20, 2013

Since its adoption by Parham, Geddes, and Zilch, the B&C DE250 1" compression driver has become familiar to home audio enthusiasts, despite its pro sound pedigree.

Over the last few years, however, a number of similar drivers have emerged. I'd like to dig a little deeper.

It seems likely that, if the DE250 is actually made in Italy, manufacturing is, at best, assembly and QC of Chinese-made parts.

According to the best information I can piece together, at some point, B&C re-sourced the driver. The original factory continued to offer it, and the tooling became "open", with at least two factories in China churning out similar drivers.

If nothing else, this tale raises interesting questions about which driver is the "orignal" and which are the "knockoffs".

Customers can now choose between:

B&C DE250
Denovo DNA-350
Denovo DNA-360
Dayton Audio D250P
PRV Audio BE280
PRV Audio D290Py
Soundwave SE250
JC Speaker BP-44B
Erisson Audio T44-K-10
Paroyal DE250
BMY DE250-8
Guanhong GD-BP44B
OEM DE250-8

...as well as several similar drivers offered without label on alibaba.com.

At least two different generic DE250 diaphragms are for sale on eBay.

A potential buyer could scoff at the whole affair and buy the B&C, but it is far and away the most expensive option. Besides that, the DNA-360, at least, measures as well or better than the DE250 and is, for all intents, interchangeable.

Surely, some of these "knockoffs" don't live up to the B&C. The DNA-350, in particular, is marketed as an inferior model for budget-conscious customers.

I'm hoping that, in starting this thread, we'll be able to gather some anecdotes and data regarding the performance and interchangeability of this "family" of drivers.

Time now to 'fess up. Who has used the "knockoffs"? What were your experiences?

winters860 · Oct 20, 2013

Here is a graph from DNA-360's vendor comparing it to the current-production DE250 on the SEOS-15 waveguide:

Here is a graph made by AVSforum user mtg90 comparing the DNA-350 and the DNA-360, on the SEOS-12:

Zonker92 · Oct 20, 2013

Great thread! :lurk:

winters860 · Oct 20, 2013

Diaphragms

B&C MMD250-8 replacement diaphragm for DE250:

Generic replacement diaphragm for DE250 #1:

Generic replacement diaphragm for DE250 #2:

Denovo DNA-360 diaphragm:

Dayton Audio D250P-RD replacement diaphragm for D250P:

PRV Audio RPD290Py replacement diaphragm for BE280 and D290Py:

winters860 · Oct 20, 2013

The Denovo and PRV diaphragms, at least, appear to be rolling off the same assembly line.

Looks can be deceiving, though, in the world of Chinese goods. One may be slightly deficient in materials or quality control to bring cents off the cost of manufacturing, or we could be seeing "A stock" and "B stock". This will even happen to the same brand over time, unless the company supervises its Chinese partners very closely. I'd wager there's not a lick of difference between them, but we can't rely on our eyes.

We can't even assume that because the diaphragms are the same, the drivers are as well.

In fact, they aren't. While Denovo use the same back cup tooling as the B&C, PRV had a new cup tooled to differentiate their driver, albeit a cup with PRV's cringeworthy "tribal tattoo" logo. Would this change affect the way the driver measures, taking the unwarranted leap of faith that the drivers are otherwise identical?

It's also worth noting that PRV is the only brand, thus far, to offer a 1-3/8" screw-on version of this driver.

winters860 · Oct 20, 2013

FWIW, here's AKer Erich H, developer of the DNA-350 and DNA-360, discussing the drivers in the "Geddes on Waveguides" thread on DIYaudio:

Erich H said:
The Denovo models (350 and 360) are not same as the Dayton's or B&C's. They share no parts. I've tested a few of all 3 and opened them up many times and also have response curves.

The cheaper Denovo 350 was the first attempt at getting close to the DE250. It's good. Good enough to where most really couldn't tell the difference in a speaker. It doesn't go quite as low as the DE250 or 360 and it's not quite as smooth up around 15khz. Up that high, no one could tell.....but the computer mic can, so it is what it is.

The more expensive Denovo DNA-360 project started when I needed help to get things better. It was worked on by a couple different people (smarter than me) experimenting, sending samples back and forth across the country, testing different diaphragms from quite a few different manufacturers, etc. I think that project took about 7 months. The 360 doesn't share any parts with any other model. And it's diaphragm is actually made at a different manufacturer than the rest of the driver itself. There's more than one manufacturer involved in the 360.

As for pricing, the 350 is cheaper because it's made, assembled, and packaged at one company. Plus, if you sat and compared the 2 side by side, you can tell that the more expensive 360 starts with a little nicer parts. Mostly just looks, and attention to detail in regards to painting or polishing the metal and things like that. The 360 is also more expensive because the parts are from different manufacturers and nicer quality.

Every unit for either model is tested before shipping. The 350's vary a little bit more between units. The 360's are quite accurate from piece to piece. When testing the 360's, I always put the response curve of the DE250 on my screen and overlay each 360 tested. They always test at least as good and sound the same as the DE250. Most of the time, better. When I say better, I mean the 360 seems to always have a better high end. On the low end, they're as good, most of the time better. Of course it's by such a small margin on the low end that it's not worth talking about. The better high end is there, but as we know, most can't hear that high anyway. And even if they could, I doubt they could hear that the DNA-360 extends up higher.

Earlier in the same thread, Dr. Earl Geddes discusses the knockoffs:

gedlee said:
I understand some of the appeal of the lower cost drivers, but in the "big picture", the driver cost is insignificant - or at least that is what I have found. But then I don't use the "mega-buck" drivers. Saving $50 on a speakers system that would cost thousands when done just does not seem to be a good choice. Granted, if the drivers are the same then why spend the extra money? No, I would buy them if they were the same, but to me, these new knock-offs are just too new to have established their reliability. Even B&C has trouble with long term stability of performance and they have made millions of them. The one knock-off that I tested was OK, but that was not a production sample at random, it was a hand selected and or assembled unit. How reliable will these units be long term? That is a big issue with me.

I remember testing some "Asian" low cost drivers sampled at random. There was no resemblance between the spec claims and reality and poor matching even between the samples. Basically their production was "out of control". B&C is one of the best that I have found in this regard.

gedlee said:
I used to work at B&C, I have seen their production lines. They CAN do it all. They do buy some steel parts and ALL the magnets from China and occasionally some diaphragms from Thailand, but their production control is very tight. What they buy and what they make probably changes all the time, but I know that they do final assembly and testing in Florence.

I've posted this before, but I will describe it again. Years ago one could take a knock-off and put its diaphragm into a B&C motor structure and visa-versa. You can't do that anymore - I tried. They are definately not the same drivers.

jhoyt · Oct 21, 2013

Very interesting information! :lurk:

StevenZ · Oct 23, 2013

Subscribed. Good info here!

dodog · Oct 23, 2013

The Denovo models (350 and 360) are not same as the Dayton's or B&C's. They share no parts. I've tested a few of all 3 and opened them up many times and also have response curves.

The cheaper Denovo 350 was the first attempt at getting close to the DE250. It's good. Good enough to where most really couldn't tell the difference in a speaker. It doesn't go quite as low as the DE250 or 360 and it's not quite as smooth up around 15khz. Up that high, no one could tell.....but the computer mic can, so it is what it is.

The more expensive Denovo DNA-360 project started when I needed help to get things better. It was worked on by a couple different people (smarter than me) experimenting, sending samples back and forth across the country, testing different diaphragms from quite a few different manufacturers, etc. I think that project took about 7 months. The 360 doesn't share any parts with any other model. And it's diaphragm is actually made at a different manufacturer than the rest of the driver itself. There's more than one manufacturer involved in the 360.

As for pricing, the 350 is cheaper because it's made, assembled, and packaged at one company. Plus, if you sat and compared the 2 side by side, you can tell that the more expensive 360 starts with a little nicer parts. Mostly just looks, and attention to detail in regards to painting or polishing the metal and things like that. The 360 is also more expensive because the parts are from different manufacturers and nicer quality.

Every unit for either model is tested before shipping. The 350's vary a little bit more between units. The 360's are quite accurate from piece to piece. When testing the 360's, I always put the response curve of the DE250 on my screen and overlay each 360 tested. They always test at least as good and sound the same as the DE250. Most of the time, better. When I say better, I mean the 360 seems to always have a better high end. On the low end, they're as good, most of the time better. Of course it's by such a small margin on the low end that it's not worth talking about. The better high end is there, but as we know, most can't hear that high anyway. And even if they could, I doubt they could hear that the DNA-360 extends up higher.

I have no reason to doubt Eric. I do find if funny, however, that the Denovo DNA-360 looks almost exactly like the B&C driver they're trying to emulate/beat. It's a bit of form/function like an RCA plug but in this case the shape, screws, fins, wire connections, bolt pattern, etc. make it look like a clone. Couldn't they have tried to be a little bit original? It's a bit shameless.

fpitas · Oct 23, 2013

dodog said:
I have no reason to doubt Eric. I do find if funny, however, that the Denovo DNA-360 looks almost exactly like the B&C driver they're trying to emulate/beat. It's a bit of form/function like an RCA plug but in this case the shape, screws, fins, wire connections, bolt pattern, etc. make it look like a clone. Couldn't they have tried to be a little bit original? It's a bit shameless.

It's possible the same factory that makes the DE250 also makes the DNA-360, "out the back door" so to speak. Under those circumstances there's a real incentive to not change anything to keep the price down.

donprice · Oct 23, 2013

The polyamide PRV D290Py-s ($68 at PE) looks like a nice candidate for an upgraded ewave. Screw the sucker on the JBL/Pyle/Dayton horn and let it rip.

The Dayton D250P specs don't match up that well with the B&C DE250. But is sure looks like the bargain (~$50). Seems to have gained no traction as an ewave candidate.

Has anyone tried swapping around the various replacement diaphragms (B&C, Denovo, PRV in particular) to see if they are interchangeable? The "clones" sure are attractive and would be easier to gamble on if you knew the repair parts were readily available.

winters860 · Oct 23, 2013

donprice said:
The polyamide PRV D290Py-s ($68 at PE) looks like a nice candidate for an upgraded ewave. Screw the sucker on the JBL/Pyle/Dayton horn and let it rip.

I've thought that would be a fun project to suss out an Ewave crossover for the D290Py-S on the JBL/Pyle/Dayton horn and paired with the Dayton Audio PA310-8 12" woofer.

Low cost, high sensitivity, and my spidey sense tells me it would sound very, very good.

winters860 · Oct 23, 2013

dodog said:
I have no reason to doubt Eric. I do find if funny, however, that the Denovo DNA-360 looks almost exactly like the B&C driver they're trying to emulate/beat. It's a bit of form/function like an RCA plug but in this case the shape, screws, fins, wire connections, bolt pattern, etc. make it look like a clone. Couldn't they have tried to be a little bit original? It's a bit shameless.

That's the miracle of "open tooling". I don't know about "shameless". Stories like the DE250 clones are an important part of the reality of modern Chinese manufacturing. I recognize that people have strong feelings about knockoff culture, but I hope this thread doesn't become a referendum on the subject.

If Erich had wanted to put a new identity on the driver, as Dayton Audio and PRV Audio did, it would have involved paying for new tooling on a back cup. On what's basically an off-the-shelf low cost design, this step would have added substantially to the end price.

Dayton and PRV can afford to eat it, because they're probably planning on selling substantially more units than Denovo. Notice that PRV's original clone, the BE280, used the same tooling as the DE250. I don't think it was on the market very long.

dodog · Oct 23, 2013

winters860 said:
That's the miracle of "open tooling". I don't know about "shameless". Stories like the DE250 clones are an important part of the reality of modern Chinese manufacturing. I recognize that people have strong feelings about knockoff culture, but I hope this thread doesn't become a referendum on the subject.

If Erich had wanted to put a new identity on the driver, as Dayton Audio and PRV Audio did, it would have involved paying for new tooling on a back cup. On what's basically an off-the-shelf low cost design, this step would have added substantially to the end price.

Dayton and PRV can afford to eat it, because they're probably planning on selling substantially more units than Denovo. Notice that PRV's original clone, the BE280, used the same tooling as the DE250. I don't think it was on the market very long.

Erich goes out of his way to point out that his drivers are entirely different than B&C, that they use completely different parts. He also likes to point out that he tries to measure against B&C, that his are different/better. Yet he has his product look exactly LIKE the B&C. It's so different yet looks exactly the same. Why go to all that bother to make it different but yet make it the same? It's not just the back cup, it's the overall shape, the binding posts, the screw-holes, etc. It's a shameless clone, whether or not it's better spec'ed and/or completely different on the inside. Again, I'm all for competition, I'm glad that Erich's group is doing what they're doing, but they should try to make their item a bit more "theirs." Just my opinion.

winters860 · Oct 23, 2013

Not to belittle the work done by Erich and DIYSoundgroup, but I think you underestimate how similar the DNA-360 and DE250 are. R&D for the DNA-360 involved sorting through clone parts already in production to make an idealized driver that tests as well or better than the DE250. It's not like he engineered a driver from the ground up to emulate the DE250 and it just happens to look the same. Nobody would believe that, and I don't think he's represented it that way.

He has gone to great pains to point out that none of his parts are rolling off the same line as the DE250, and I think that, given that two of his signature products are boldfaced copies of a driver currently in production by a major company, emphasizing the differences is probably wise.

Why didn't he have a new back cup made? As I said earlier, I'm sure it boils down to cost and minimum order quantity.

donprice · Oct 23, 2013

winters860 said:
That's the miracle of "open tooling". I don't know about "shameless".

Sort of like how the Pyle and Dayton waveguides look nearly identical to the original JBL? At some point patents/copyrights expire, I think, so a copy or re-running the original tooling is just part of the business cycle.

I have both DE250 and DNA-360 but I can't convince myself to open them up to compare the insides.....and the DE250 is currently in use.

winters860 · Oct 23, 2013

donprice said:
Sort of like how the Pyle and Dayton waveguides look nearly identical to the original JBL? At some point patents/copyrights expire, I think, so a copy or re-running the original tooling is just part of the business cycle.

Slightly different, as I think both the Pyle and Dayton waveguides are made from different molds of the JBL.

Another pertinent point is that both the JBL waveguide and the DE250 should both should still be protected by all applicable IP laws. It seems that neither Harman nor B&C are willing to devote the necessary resources to putting the kibosh on the knockoffs.

QSC has a similar situation, with everybody from Behringer on down copying the RMX amplifiers, but I haven't heard of a single company being sued or even sent a C&D letter.

winters860 · Oct 23, 2013

donprice said:
I have both DE250 and DNA-360 but I can't convince myself to open them up to compare the insides.....and the DE250 is currently in use.

If you decide to compare them, this thread needs detailed pics!

audiozaz · Oct 24, 2013

Thanks for aggregating the comparative data on this "familly" of drivers. I would not have done it myself as I don't have an active interest in purchasing any of them at the moment, but I'm pretty sure I'd go with the B&C DE250.

az

winters860 · Oct 24, 2013

To misquote Mark Twain, there are three types of lies pertaining to raw drivers: lies, damned lies, and manufacturer response graphs. Nonetheless, here's some to chew on.

B&C DE250 manufacturer's frequency response graph, measured on 4.3"H x 10.2"W B&C ME 45 horn:

Denovo DNA-360 manufacturer's frequency response graph, measured on 7.9"H x 15.5"W Denovo SEOS-15 horn:

PRV BE280 manufacturer's frequency response graph, measured on unidentified horn:

PRV D290py-S manufacturer's frequency response graph, measured on 4.5"H x 4.5"W PRV WG11-25 horn:

Dayton D250P manufacturer's frequency response graph, measured on unidentified horn:

Soundwave SE250 manufacturer datasheet just copies the B&C datasheet whole-hog.

Differences existed in the size and type of the horn used, the amount of smoothing applied to the graphs, and general methodology and rigor. Even if we take each graph at its' word, these aren't true apples-to-apples comparisons.

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