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Bringing the SET 300b/Altec 19 honeymoon to a screeching halt...Pass First Watt F5

tomlinmgt

tomlinmgt

Lunatic Member
Just gave this F5 clone I picked up from Watt (dude...thanks!!) a first listen tonight. Though my knowledge of the First Watt F-models is limited, I knew enough to know there was certainly some potential there, but I've been so tube drunk with my 19's I didn't set my expectations too high for a SS amp with those speakers.

Talk about gross underestimation. Good Lord...I'm not the fanboy type but that Pass character knows how to put 'em out of the park. I'll add more later...that damn amp kept me up late enough already.
 
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Stop it. Don't you know that those Pass designed amps don't measure particularly well? All you need is an acoustically transparent component, and anything past that is just distortions being applied to make it appealing to audiophiles. It is apparent that you don't know what you need, let someone else who knows how to properly test that amp tell you what you really need.:D

Regards
Mister Pig

Oh and congrats on the amp. I have been considering one of the First Watt amps for my speaker system also. Not sure if I want to go whole hog on a genuine one, or consider buying one of the clones that come up on the used market.
 
Welcome to the reality!

Sold every piece of tube gear i owned a few years back, most of it at a loss. I won't be sucked into the vacuum of tubes again.

The Pass Aleph J would be the cream on a pair of Nineteens. Where the F5 is a push/pull topology, the Aleph J uses output MOSFETs in a single ended configuration and produces the same 25 watts as the F5 at 8 ohms.

I have been considering one of the First Watt amps for my speaker system also. Not sure if I want to go whole hog on a genuine one, or consider buying one of the clones that come up on the used market.
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If you're handy, build build build. There are resources, and help out there.
 
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Bringing the SET 300b/Altec 19 honeymoon to a screeching halt...Pass First Wa...

Ok, I have a few minutes here to get some pics up. This unit was built by cdfac and I'd have to say he did a damn fine job! Here's the link to his build thread (get on in here cdfac if you're seein' this)...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=381402

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Glad you like it, man! Like you, I'd read a lot about Pass's designs and the admiration for them, but the proof really was in the hearing.

I could only let this F5 go by telling myself that I'd find an Aleph 30 or J after I move.
 
You are unstoppable!!!

The F5 is on my shortlist too, I need one for my ribbons, it seems they can be modified to drive impedance loads of less then 1 ohm :twak:
 
sheltie dave said:
Michael and Bowtie, keep posting on this. I have been wondering which First Watt to jump on...
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I'm kind of where you are.

I have an acquaintance with an F5 powering Altec 416-8B in Onkens, 802-8G on MR994 horns with networks based on a Hiraga circuit, i think, of the handful of systems i "visit", this is the one i listen to, look forward to listening to, and don't want to stop listening to.

Not exactly Nineteens, i know. But, the same well sorted, and time tested core components.

So, as sold as i am on the F5, i have read enough praise for the Aleph that i have to give it strong consideration.

Having recently sold the Krell and Westlakes to get back on the Altec bus full time, a Pass/Firstwatt, eventually a pair, will be coming home soon.
 
My immediate impression of the amp is the stunning clarity it evokes from the 19's without conjuring up any of that upper mid range harshness I often hear when juicing them with SS power. I mean, I was totally convinced something was going to come along any second and make me wince a little.....but it never did. The only hint of any such indiscretion I detected might've been a slightly lean component to that region of content, but I'm now thinking I've probably just become accustomed to the hearty and thick tube "gravy". That's not to say the F5 lacks body and girth as those things are certainly there. But the meat comes across a bit more tidy....less gristle and fat, if you will (but every bit as tasty)....and when I first heard it I'll admit I thought it was a little lean. By the fourth song that impression had been lost on a half dozen different elements of performance that were commanding my attention.....microdynamics, speed, control, image resolution and sound stage presentation (really good), transparency (and here I thought the 811's were handicapping the 19's ability to disappear), low level detail (the best I've heard, bar none). Steve Windwood/ Santana's cover of Sade's "Why Can't We Live Together" (!!!) was a definite "oh good Lord, what have I discovered here" moment. And I say that only because of how much I enjoyed that track with the 19's and tubes...like I wondered how much better it could actually get. Well, the F5 showed me.

I don't want to draw any conclusions at this point as with only an hour spent with the F5 they'd be a bit premature. But no doubt, it's going to be very interesting going back to the GTA 300B SET monos after a weekend with the F5. :scratch2: :yes:

Here's that tune....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npDJomXPdCs

....and on MOG...

https://mog.com/m#album/41636041

- Michael
 
tomlinmgt said:
Ok, I have a few minutes here to get some pics up. This unit was built by cdfac and I'd have to say he did a damn fine job! Here's the link to his build thread (get on in here cdfac if you're seein' this)...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=381402

ugura6ez.jpg
e3u3uge2.jpg
ze4utuvy.jpg
avymata4.jpg
9amabazu.jpg
py4edyzu.jpg
jytybame.jpg
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Looks a lot like a Tim Rawson build. Especially the raw aluminum case. That was a nice build by cdfac... I have always wondered how these DIY Pass amps compare to genuine First Watt....

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Mister Pig said:
Looks a lot like a Tim Rawson build. Especially the raw aluminum case. That was a nice build by cdfac... I have always wondered how these DIY Pass amps compare to genuine First Watt....

Regards
Mister Pig
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Me too. But Mr. Pass is so passionate about DIYers rolling their own with his designs I have a hard time believing he's holding anything back and it seems he finds genuine glee in seeing his creations come to life at the hands of the passionate and capable among us. The guy has a great spirit and I swear I think I'm getting a sense of it after having owned the Thresholds and now this F5. I can't wait to get back to OB's with amps that behave like the F5 and am now researching more of his designs.

AKer Mondialfan (Kevin), who is a resident authority on Acurus/Aragon products (and who beautifully modded my RL11) just built a pair of Alephs and I'm anxious to hear them once they've seasoned a bit. I sold him my Vandersteen 2ci's and remember how much I enjoyed hearing them with the Thresholds just before I passed them on to him....so needless to say I look forward to hearing them with the Alephs. He's a great local resource and I'm fortunate that he lives in the immediate area. :D

I know I'm onto something because I have that feeling we get when we know it's really good.....can't wait to get home tonight for hours of listening. And that doesn't happen as often as it used to. :yes:
 
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Mister Pig said:
Looks a lot like a Tim Rawson build. Especially the raw aluminum case.
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The case/heatsinks are sourced by the individual constructor, so any similarities to a Rawson build could just be coincidental.

That was a nice build by cdfac... I have always wondered how these DIY Pass amps compare to genuine First Watt....

Regards
Mister Pig
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If you look at the products page, you'll notice that there are quite a few of the designs that are not built and sold as finished pieces. DIY only. Seems like the F5 was offered as a First Watt product long ago, I don't remember, but almost all I see these days are DIY of some sort. So comparing a FW F5 to a DIY F5 might take a little doing, the same with some of the others. And I don't think he releases full schematics of FW built products to the DIY market until a certain number of units have been sold by FW.

Maybe somebody more familiar with the lineup will chime in.
 
Jeffery said:
The case/heatsinks are sourced by the individual constructor, so any similarities to a Rawson build could just be coincidental.



If you look at the products page, you'll notice that there are quite a few of the designs that are not built and sold as finished pieces. DIY only. Seems like the F5 was offered as a First Watt product long ago, I don't remember, but almost all I see these days are DIY of some sort. So comparing a FW F5 to a DIY F5 might take a little doing, the same with some of the others. And I don't think he releases full schematics of FW built products to the DIY market until a certain number of units have been sold by FW.

Maybe somebody more familiar with the lineup will chime in.
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"In the end, that's the part which matters most to you and me. Nelson's haiku instructions to thinking DIYers are for the hands-on crowd. Amazingly here, detailed instructions on how to roll your own are out prior to first commercial units. For the F5, Nelson's very sporting generosity has put DIYers on equal footing with FirstWatt."

Here's the entire article....

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt7/f5.html
 
I second Mr. pig-let someone who knows what you R E A L L Y need steer you into a PRO audio amp and some zip cord speaker wire with .99 cent interconnects -that's all you really need.....along with some richman p.a. speakers -![ guy with the stuffed cat comes to mind] '' sarcasm button disengaging ''
 
tom,

I've long been an advocate of the stance that Altecs don't necessarily need tubes to sound good, they simply reflect the quality of the amplification which is hooked up to them.

Why should it not be that way? It stands to reason that the more capable the speakers are, the more insight they will shed upon the upstream components/software.

My philosphy, more than ever, is that the system is Software/Source led. It might be foolish to be hooking a $40,000 turntable up to a $50 T-amp and a $100 pair of speakers based upon a philosophy that the Source is all important, however I do see individuals who are happy to use highly capable speakers with less capable sources and amps and feel that they must be getting great sound because the speakers are expensive and capable(they're what you listen to. No?). Both approaches waste the talent of the highly expensive capable component. Both ventures establish the ground-work for a potentially magnificent system, but that system is not in place just with one capable component.

It can be mind-blowing working from a magnificent Source initially, to the realisation of just how great that wonderful component is when a similarly capable amplification and speaker chain is at last linked up to it. The same will apply to those staggeringly great speakers when a similarly great Source and amps are put in place.

tom, of course you know that I am assuming that the hypothetical owners of these conjectured systems have an idea of how to deal with the space they are in. No idea there mitigates strongly against any success in high quality playback.
 
theophile said:
tom,

I've long been an advocate of the stance that Altecs don't necessarily need tubes to sound good, they simply reflect the quality of the amplification which is hooked up to them.

Why should it not be that way? It stands to reason that the more capable the speakers are, the more insight they will shed upon the upstream components/software.

My philosphy, more than ever, is that the system is Software/Source led. It might be foolish to be hooking a $40,000 turntable up to a $50 T-amp and a $100 pair of speakers based upon a philosophy that the Source is all important, however I do see individuals who are happy to use highly capable speakers with less capable sources and amps and feel that they must be getting great sound because the speakers are expensive and capable(they're what you listen to. No?). Both approaches waste the talent of the highly expensive capable component. Both ventures establish the ground-work for a potentially magnificent system, but that system is not in place just with one capable component.

It can be mind-blowing working from a magnificent Source initially, to the realisation of just how great that wonderful component is when a similarly capable amplification and speaker chain is at last linked up to it. The same will apply to those staggeringly great speakers when a similarly great Source and amps are put in place.

tom, of course you know that I am assuming that the hypothetical owners of these conjectured systems have an idea of how to deal with the space they are in. No idea there mitigates strongly against any success in high quality playback.
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Well, I know you feel that way now. And I'm glad you stipulated it at the conclusion of your comment because the whole time I'm reading everything you're saying I'm thinking to myself...gotta get the room sorted out before any of that applies. IME more often than not it all falls into a tidy little sequence.....room, source, speakers, electronics, ancillaries (cables and the like). Under certain circumstances some items can change their location in the order, but the room will dictate everything in most every case. But you know this already.

Now, your comment regarding tubes not being a requirement for Altec sweetness is worth addressing. As I said, this is the first SS amp I've tried with the Altecs that offers as satisfying a listen as tube power has (the right tube power, that is). And it's not as if I've only tried a few SS amps....there have been at least half dozen or more and the only one I found acceptable prior to the F5 clone was a Threshold S/300. But even then I preferred triode tube power or the SET monos to the Threshold...and not by a small margin (for the record, I preferred the S/300 to a restored ST-70). So this little FW clone has kinda been a game changer in that it did something I've had a very hard time doing....get magic out of the Altecs with SS power. Based on your assessment ("they simply reflect the quality of the amplification which is hooked up to them") it appears I got my hands on higher quality SS amplification than I've ever had before. And I'm certainly not motivated to argue with that.
 
I always wondered about those amps. Also wonder about using a fully regulated ultra low noise power supply.
 
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