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What's more important, speaker efficiency or big power amps.

twiiii

Lunatic Member
I was reading an issue of Stereophile the other day and the author was saying the dynamic range of CD's has been reduced from 16.3 db above the average power level to less than 9 db.

So I was thinking if the average person listens at 85 db with a point source speaker at 8 ft with a speaker of 90 db sensitivity the power required would be about 2 watts. Nothing extreme, but if you had one of the older less compressed CD's then you would need 100 watts. In the days of LP's electronics for recordings were capable of capturing 24 db peaks. I use to measure 20 db peaks all the time with a storage oscilloscope from the output of my 300- 2/4 and Ag 350. Even my little F4460 could capture 20 db peaks. So that would mean you would need 200 watts. If you are an audio phile or recording engineer or producer that listens at an average level of 90 db that would mean you would need about another 6 db of power or 800 watts. Now how many folks can afford 800 watt power amps or own speakers that are linear with an 800 watt input signal?

I am of the opinion we need more efficient speakers if you like to listen to linear recordings that are uncompressed either from CD's or vinyl. If you were listening at 90 db and a 16 db peak came along and you had a speaker with 98 db efficiency, then you would only need a 50 watt amplifier for an audiophile and maybe 16 watts for the average person.

Doesn't that make more sense. So how do we achieve these goals. The amps, that's easy. The speakers, well horns come to mind ,but that requires some real engineering! A path main stream designers have chosen not to follow lately. JBL has its K2 and DD series, and Klipsch its Heritage speakers, Altec is still around at Great Plains Audio, Volti, and other small independents are available. But what about something reasonably priced for the masses that are craving great sound.

I want more life like efficient speakers? What about you?
 
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After going round and round for a few years, I twigged speakers every time. I think always match amp to speakers and wouldn't ever go another way again.
 
If one wants Quality and IMO Decently efficient drivers are an intrinsic component of quality.
One needs pay a bit more.
 
In general, I agree with you and tend to run speakers rated from the mid-90s to over 100db/1w/1m. Efficient speakers seem to get dynamic contrasts 'right'.

HOWEVER..... My M-L CLS are not what I would call efficient (86db/1w/1m) plus a horrible load (1-2 ohms in the highs) on the amp and yet they seem as dynamic and quick as my horns - but only with the right amp.

The earlier comments about speaker/amp matching is, in my opinion, spot on. We really are comparing that combination and I think, because they are so much easier to drive, that is why more efficient speakers sound like they get the dynamic range better.
 
It seems as though the finest flagship models from the foremost manufactures perform their best with multiple high current amplifiers, so I guess high power reigns supreme, if you have the money.
 
The first problem we have is that damn mastering compression. Useless in my opinion. When I'm listening to music on my laptop through headphones, I turn the laptop volume up to 100% and set my volume level via the media player program (VLC in my case), and with modern electronic music, I literally can't bring the volume past 11%. And if I switch to an old, uncompressed CD from the '80's or '90's, I can often go two, even three times higher before my ears throw in the towel. That's just insane. I have NEVER been in a situation where I couldn't get enough volume out of a laptop/CD-player/mp3-player with the older, uncompressed CD pressings. Not even remotely-close. So why are they STILL pushing the brickwalling envelope after all this time? How can I get my speakers/amp/receiver up into the sweet spot if I can barely crack the volume knob? I don't understand the logic of recording companies these days. Let the gear do the heavy lifting, not the CD.
 
I have come to believe in good clean power combined with rather efficient loudspeakers.

I have a pair of Tannoy Arden and use a Threshold S200 to drive them. A very nice combination.
 
Efficient speakers seem to get dynamic contrasts 'right'.

<If> they're capable of high output before compression sets in, not all high efficiency speakers are. Dead in the water at 100db is still dead in the water whether it took 2 watts or 20 watts to get there.
 
This $79 Eminence Beta12LTA at 98dbs delivers an incredible sense of scale from just a couple of watts.

With the dust cap replaced by a phase plug they can be as satisfying as Lowthers and may be the all time best buy wide bander.

MK70-FS3-vrs-B12LTA.jpg
 
Interesting question. If I may rephrase - Given on the one hand efficient speakers being fed with just enough clean power to peak at, say 90 dB SPL, vs. less efficient speakers being fed with more clean power so that they also reach the same peak 90 dB SPL, is there any perceptible difference in sound or did we simply reach the same finish line by taking a different route?

I don't know the answer - that's why I'm asking the question.
 
Interesting question. If I may rephrase - Given on the one hand efficient speakers being fed with just enough clean power to peak at, say 90 dB SPL, vs. less efficient speakers being fed with more clean power so that they also reach the same peak 90 dB SPL, is there any perceptible difference in sound or did we simply reach the same finish line by taking a different route?

In my experience and opinion, no; other characteristics of the speaker's voice such as tonal balance, imaging and distortion will dominate.
 
Interesting question. If I may rephrase - Given on the one hand efficient speakers being fed with just enough clean power to peak at, say 90 dB SPL, vs. less efficient speakers being fed with more clean power so that they also reach the same peak 90 dB SPL, is there any perceptible difference in sound or did we simply reach the same finish line by taking a different route?

I don't know the answer - that's why I'm asking the question.

If I may rephrase your question: Do all speakers sound the same when SPLs are matched? The answer is obvious.

Consider this: not even two different models/brands of speakers with the same sensitivity will sound identical when levels are matched, so why should two speakers of differing sensitivities sound the same just because you feed each with the power necessary to match levels?
 
<If> they're capable of high output before compression sets in, not all high efficiency speakers are. Dead in the water at 100db is still dead in the water whether it took 2 watts or 20 watts to get there.

Agreed if we are including the entire universe of speakers out there.

I was referring to the Lowthers, JBLs, Klipsch and Altecs currently in residence -all of which are capable of >100db.

Also thought the conversation was referring to the ability of efficient and not efficient speakers to convey dynamic contrasts, not volume level?

Quad ESL-57s are wonderful at conveying dynamic contrasts - within their power handling and volume limitations.
 
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