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"A Project To Measure Groove Friction; Last Record Preservative's Effectiveness.
- Thread starter Karma16
- Start date
Pio1980
AK Member
Sorry, no can do.
luckydog
Canis inquirit
Would you kindly publish the three times, Pio1980. ie Stylus up, stylus down before, stylus down after ? Thx.
Pio1980
AK Member
Mitz LT-30 planar DC DD @ 45RPM
Unloaded rundown;
18.18s
17.81s
17.93s
Loaded W/ Grado Black @1.5gm, untreated;
16.38s
16.75s
16.60s
Loaded treated w/GG
16.50s
17.03s
16.87s
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marcmorin
RIP 1953-2020
Not bad. The Black stylus is 7 X 3, moderatly polished stone
Pio1980
AK Member
Oddly there appeared to be no significant change when I checked the handwritten notes on the pad. Yet, transferring these figures onto the posting I think there might, might be a slight trend to lubricity shown with GG. I'll check the Denon AC DD DP-55K for longer run-down and if significantly longer, re-run the tests on it with another disc.
JonL
Lunatic Member
Less than a quarter of a second (average) out of 16 - 17 seconds doesn't seem to be much, especially considering the nature of how the speed is set and the time measured. The difference in averages is less than the variability within each data set. I'm no statistician, but I think these tests should be run with more trials, and then some statistical analysis applied. Excel probably has suitable built-in tools.
Pio1980
AK Member
Given the improvement in playback quality, I'd encourage others to try it for themselves and perhaps parity-check my results. DJ Deals ships free BTW.
luckydog
Canis inquirit
The claims for Gruv-Gilde on their website include reduced friction, and also they claim most of the audible benefits that have been observed by gusten and myself from silicone based products which do actually reduce friction. The audible result seems to be endorsed by Pio1980 to an extent, except for some reason he's seemingly not measuring a reduction in stop time, which seems odd. The quicker the stopping time, the less accurate the method is, BTW, though I would still have expected to clearly see the difference, but it's not impossible that any result is lost in statistical variance as JonL says. Is it an LT arm perchance, Pio1980 ?
I just realised that, IIRC, I haven't yet posted my own stop test results for Autoglym's Vinyl & Rubber Care product, which has known ingredients and is definitely silicone based. Here's a set of stop time results for a reasonably massive platter with nude elliptical stylus, 2g VTF, :
Stylus up : 56.8s +/- 0.2s
Stylus down before treatment : 46.2s +/- 0.3s
Stylus down after treatment : 52.2 +/- 0.2s
Which suggests a significant reduction in friction, but not quite as pronounced as gusten's. And just to confirm, I seem to be getting similar results to gusten, both audible and measured. And resembling the claims of Gruv-Glide and Pio1980's audible observations. And without clogging, BTW.
I just realised that, IIRC, I haven't yet posted my own stop test results for Autoglym's Vinyl & Rubber Care product, which has known ingredients and is definitely silicone based. Here's a set of stop time results for a reasonably massive platter with nude elliptical stylus, 2g VTF, :
Stylus up : 56.8s +/- 0.2s
Stylus down before treatment : 46.2s +/- 0.3s
Stylus down after treatment : 52.2 +/- 0.2s
Which suggests a significant reduction in friction, but not quite as pronounced as gusten's. And just to confirm, I seem to be getting similar results to gusten, both audible and measured. And resembling the claims of Gruv-Glide and Pio1980's audible observations. And without clogging, BTW.
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Pio1980
AK Member
The Mitz LT-30 is indeed an LT arm TT with a DC planar spindle motor. These motors have a ferrous backing plate under the drive coils which produces a free-spin damping effect, reducing unpowered spin-down time. It has very convenient function controls which aided the testing. The other TTs are also DD types tho' one is AC without the eddy-current spin-down damping effect but uses a spindle stabilized gantry linear arm tha adds somewhat to free-spin drag. The Pioneer PL-L1000 is DC drive but may have longer spin-down, I'll check it. The H-K T60 isn't suitable for the testing as the belt cannot be dis-engaged during play.
Someone with a suitable TT with longer spin-down time should follow up.
Otherwise, the more I listen to treated records the more interested I am in the apparent sonic benefits rather than just measurable friction reduction, there is a naturalness and 'ease' to playback that is normally elusive with high-resolution vinyl reproduction with dynamics unfettered and a top end without the hard-edged added-on glitter. Extended stylus service life and record play protection would a real bonus.
How is the vinyl treatment doing with residue accumulation on the stone?
Someone with a suitable TT with longer spin-down time should follow up.
Otherwise, the more I listen to treated records the more interested I am in the apparent sonic benefits rather than just measurable friction reduction, there is a naturalness and 'ease' to playback that is normally elusive with high-resolution vinyl reproduction with dynamics unfettered and a top end without the hard-edged added-on glitter. Extended stylus service life and record play protection would a real bonus.
How is the vinyl treatment doing with residue accumulation on the stone?
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Pio1980
AK Member
Trying to correlate the test results with the report of a reliable (IMO) long-term user, I find it interesting to contemplate that LAST would substantially reduce the tearing-away of carbon atoms from the tip during play without actually affecting sliding friction as indicated by the run-down testing comparisons. Yet the reported improvements in playback SQ would seem to indicate better tracing of the treated groove. How to correlate that to an effect unrelated to friction reduction is the quandary for modelling the process to get these results.
luckydog
Canis inquirit
Interesting is one word for it, Pio1980 ! It would take a remarkable coincidence for the new coefficient of friction of any surrogate surface to be near identical to the untreated case, IMO. And then the theoretical sonic benefits wouldn't necessarily be there as I see it. I also think that when one does achieve low stylus-groove friction, the sonic effects are transformational to the extent which isn't typically anecdotally described for Last. And someone by now couldn't have kept that quiet ! Also just recently JonL observed wear after using stylast which seemed unremarkable.
If one puts it all together with Sparky's observations, all the reports seem unlikely to be truly reconcilable, but hey this is the real world. Something must be wrong/odd IMO, obviously accidentally. I'm not denying anyone's experiences or testimony, it's all in good faith I'm sure. But the overall picture of a wear reduction treatment which doesn't appear to reduce friction, and has somewhat differing observations as to actual wear emerges. Which I agree seems 'interesting' to contemplate, for me I'd say 'hard' to contemplate. There isn't much data to go on, in the end though.
It would, as ever, be very handy to know what was in the current LAST brew, and how it's meant to work. As we now know for some of the other products which are observed to reduce friction and produce profound sonic results here.
Someone has started a thread on VE looking at various friction reducing agents, and there's some interesting ideas about trying to explore mould release agents which might have been used as part of the vinyl pressing process. If anything emerges, I'll cross post that here too.
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Pio1980
AK Member
I think the only change was to the vehicle carrying the Fomblin. I'm assuming the original used a variant of Freon, possibly the commonly used formulation 19. The present one uses something else with very high volatility as a carrier, I think the vehicle is unrelated to bonding or efficacy as it's the Fomblin molecule that does that and they wouldn't offer a less effective product then previously provided.
luckydog
Canis inquirit
Hmmm. My (very small) wager would go that for whatever reason the current formula doesn't contain Fomblin, otherwise I really think you'd see a fantastic reduction in friction coefficient. Don't forget that only the patent describes that the PFPE lubricant as an example, we don't actually know the product composition.
Personally, this was a great disappointment, because it is such a good story and seems bang on. But surely in the US, like the EU, its necessary to disclose ingredients into the public domain by statute and legislation, for safety and environmental reasons ? Does anyone know, perchance, what the process is and where it's lodged ?
Personally, this was a great disappointment, because it is such a good story and seems bang on. But surely in the US, like the EU, its necessary to disclose ingredients into the public domain by statute and legislation, for safety and environmental reasons ? Does anyone know, perchance, what the process is and where it's lodged ?
speedle
Peanut gallery owner
You're hilarious. In my opinion. On the other hand, you may or may not be telling the truth.
On topic, I'm tempted to try this, if only Armor All weren't part of the possibilities. Can someone verify that Autoglym VRC500US is the same as what's available in EU?
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