A Tale of Two Phono Stages...and more!

[theflattire]

I wrote a whole thing over on SH and don't feel like doing it over so here's the short version.
When I got my Darlington Labs MP7, I was blown away.



I knew a phono stage was important, I just didn't realize how important it was.
At the time I was using a Cambridge Duo, a Rega P1 and 2M Blue going into it. Great! I thought. Phono stages just boost a signal, right?
When I upgraded TTs I decided to upgrade my phono stage hence the MP7 and holy crap I couldn't believe how much I had been missing!
That's the good. The bad is I started to wonder what a more expensive phono stage would sound like; how much could I squeeze out of my P3 and AT VM750SH.
My ideal stage would have been a TOTL MM only stage but when you get to a certain price point, most are MM/MC. Close was the Transcend by Aric Audio and I almost went there but queue was about six weeks and info was sparse.
So, Tavish Designs Adagio:



Getting some tubes rolled. More on that later.

Seems there are just as many phono stages in the $2k range as there are in the $200 range! They come in all different flavors, you need to research to see which ones fit your needs.
The Adagio is Stereophile recommended, high praise for a small company. Reviews said it sounded above it's price which back then was about $1500, today one will set you back $2190 and it's been sold out but when I inquired a couple of days ago they were putting a couple of them together so I would try and see if you can get in the queue.
Anyways, it turns out the Darlington Labs MP7 with a cost of about $600, with recent upgrades, and according to the website a new PCB board, sounds very close to this $2k amp!
Like so close it's coming down to SS vs tubes. By tubes I mean NOS tubes as when the stock JJs were in there it was damn close! Detail, attack, decay, etc. were neck and neck. Either not really doing anything better than the other. Yeah there were differences, but they are/were so slight that you really had to listen for it. I say were, because that sort of changed when I rolled in the NOS GEs.
More bass, deeper and a fatter tube sound. Subtle but enough to notice.
Choose one; without the other you wouldn't know the difference.

I kinda figured going in that this would be close. The Darlington Labs is that good.
During my research and reading and reading and reading I cross referenced this review and that, mostly anecdotal stuff, but it started to appear the MP7 was the real deal, a true giant killer and the copy wasn't just rhetoric! Man, keeping up with an amp that costs 3x as much!

Now, rolling the tubes, again made a difference. Dynamics and musicality I feel the Tavish is a small notch ahead. Again if you only had one, you would be very happy!
Tubey vs SS. The ability to alter the sound vs more or less locked in. The Adagio can go MC while you need at matching SUT for the Darlington.

Did I just blow $1700 (I got the Tavish used) for the same quality and performance. Yes and no.
I do plan on going MC, maybe very soon. I also have a Nagaoka MP500 on the way so we'll see how both do with that beast.
Now take this with a grain of salt for I know not what lay beyond these two great phono stages.
Tavish for a bit more lushness and bass and MC capability and tube rolling.
Darlington MP7 for small inexpensive (comparitively) awesome sound. The MP7, IMO is pound for pound the best phono stage available! Their MM6 probably ranks up there also.
BTW, I know I am shilling for Darlington Labs and in no way am I being compensated. I just really like their product and think it's the freakin phono deal of a lifetime! If you don't have one, or a stage around the $1k range, you should.

Lastly, I just want to go over how important a phono stage is.
This is for you guys with $1k tables running $200 phono stages or onboard pre amps thinking its all good.
It's not.
I had send my MP7 in for some adjustments and while it was gone, I ran that $14 Pyle PP999. No it didn't sound like crap, in fact it sounded ok. Ok like how my first rig sounded with that Cambridge Duo.
I started to wonder, do all these inexpensive phono stages have a Pyle in them?

You want just OK, no problem I understand. Compared to what can be, the Cambridge was OK. I got a feeling that most phono stages in that class are just OK too for nothing really stands out performance wise.
No, brand i and brand S are not competing above the price point. You get what you pay for.
If you are trying to really really get vinyl and squeeze all you can out of your system, it starts with the phono stage. Doesn't really make sense to upgrade the TT and cart if your phono stage can't resolve it.
Don't let the phono stage be your bottleneck. I think a really good phono stage is to be found in the $500+ range. Anything less is more than likely just adequate compared to what can be. Like photography, there's a difference between consumer level and pro level.

I would appreciate input from folks that have phono stages in the $2-4000 range. I gots to know! Modwright is calling me!

Hopefully this helps some of you enjoy your records a bit more.

BTW, I don't mean to lump all phono stages generally into performance groups or price class.
There are many, many small companies out there working hard to produce a quality product for an affordable price. I personally went looking for this type of company as opposed to the big names churning stuff out on an assembly line. There are jewels in the chaff!
To the small guys making vinyl music better, chapeau!

 

[beekeo]

thank you for the write-up!

I've been pondering where to go next in the upgrade path and preamp/phono/cartridge keep jockeying for position. Darlington's phono pre's are one I keep considering.

 

[WizardWG4]

I ran that $14 Pyle PP999. No it didn't sound like crap, in fact it sounded ok.

With a better power supply and a few component changes the PP999 may surprise you even more.



https://www.jameco.com/z/DFU240050D...le-Output-24-Volt-0-5-Amp-12-Watt_174861.html

 

[beekeo]

hmm well that could be interesting, modding an off the shelf preamp for beer money?
...sigh now I'm down a rabbit hole

 

[DavidTT]

Darlington seems to be the current darling of the turntable-related forums. The guy who runs/owns them even makes appearances on ASR to argue for his designs against the measurements-only crowd there. He's very much a subjectivist from what I can tell. All of this reminds me MUCH of a period of time a few years ago when the Lounge LCRIII was praised bigly and uncannily frequently in the relevant forums. Lounge is still selling a series of LCR phono preamps that sell for up to $800+ but I almost never hear about them anymore.

I bought a Lounge LCR when it was the hot thing and I was extremely disappointed. It not only failed to sound the same as 'lesser' preamps I'd tried, it sounded different in ways I didn't like at all. I sold it off after a few weeks and became forevermore skeptical of claims of magic happening with a preamp switch. The differences I hear, even when making pretty big jumps in equipment, are typically subtle and can often be referred to as 'different, maybe better, maybe just different', so when I hear the usual audiophile claims I'm just...not...sure.

Regarding Darlington, and to be blunt, I'm more than a little suspicious when I see any equipment that becomes a darling of internet forums that gets discussed and praised constantly. Considering that phono preamps have been around for decades, I'm just not sure I buy into the hype surrounding the massive changes that hobbyists insist on hearing when they switch out what really ought to be a fairly simple component. I know this runs WAY against the orthodoxy of some. So be it. Maybe some day I'll get the itch and spend big on a phono preamp, but probably not. In the meantime it'll be very interesting to me to see how long the 'rave run' goes on forums for Darlington.

 

[theflattire]

thank you for the write-up!

I've been pondering where to go next in the upgrade path and preamp/phono/cartridge keep jockeying for position. Darlington's phono pre's are one I keep considering.

You cannot go wrong with the MP7. In all my reading, it was only bested by more expensive phono stages. Comparisons with a Lehman Decade were close with the Decade just getting the nod. I almost went with a Decade as I think the basic topology is the same, but decided a small gain wasn't worth it.
Don't overlook the MM6 either. I never had one, but in reading the testimony, it's a giant killer also.

hmm well that could be interesting, modding an off the shelf preamp for beer money?
...sigh now I'm down a rabbit hole

Someone else mentioned on how to upgrade it, but there are reliability issue that I read about so I don't know if it's worth it.

 

[WizardWG4]

Someone else mentioned on how to upgrade it, but there are reliability issue that I read about so I don't know if it's worth it.[/QUOTE]

I modified mine about a year ago. No reliability issues yet.

 

[vinyldavid]

I will have to audition this Darlington Labs device. I found my Cambridge Audio Duo to be exceptionally transparent, but not everyone likes transparency. The lower MM5 scored exceptionally poorly in real SNR tests, which is key for a high gain device.

 

[theflattire]

I will have to audition this Darlington Labs device. I found my Cambridge Audio Duo to be exceptionally transparent, but not everyone likes transparency. The lower MM5 scored exceptionally poorly in real SNR tests, which is key for a high gain device.

I had a Duo and it's not close. When I changed it out for the MP7, it sounded like I was listening to different records; the proverbial veil lifted.

The ASR test of the MM6...well I don't think you can go by just numbers. IMO, the tester at ASR is full of himself, but that's just me.
I think Darlington still offers a 30 day thing. Out of all the reviews, I believe there was only one gentleman who said he could not hear a difference and I don't think anyone complained about the SQ. Oh, ASR did, but they didn't actually listen to it.

 

[krichard2496]

With a better power supply and a few component changes the PP999 may surprise you even more.

View attachment 2679664

https://www.jameco.com/z/DFU240050D...le-Output-24-Volt-0-5-Amp-12-Watt_174861.html

Notes on our Beginner's Page of our website discuss how to

Darlington seems to be the current darling of the turntable-related forums. The guy who runs/owns them even makes appearances on ASR to argue for his designs against the measurements-only crowd there. He's very much a subjectivist from what I can tell. All of this reminds me MUCH of a period of time a few years ago when the Lounge LCRIII was praised bigly and uncannily frequently in the relevant forums. Lounge is still selling a series of LCR phono preamps that sell for up to $800+ but I almost never hear about them anymore.

I bought a Lounge LCR when it was the hot thing and I was extremely disappointed. It not only failed to sound the same as 'lesser' preamps I'd tried, it sounded different in ways I didn't like at all. I sold it off after a few weeks and became forevermore skeptical of claims of magic happening with a preamp switch. The differences I hear, even when making pretty big jumps in equipment, are typically subtle and can often be referred to as 'different, maybe better, maybe just different', so when I hear the usual audiophile claims I'm just...not...sure.

Regarding Darlington, and to be blunt, I'm more than a little suspicious when I see any equipment that becomes a darling of internet forums that gets discussed and praised constantly. Considering that phono preamps have been around for decades, I'm just not sure I buy into the hype surrounding the massive changes that hobbyists insist on hearing when they switch out what really ought to be a fairly simple component. I know this runs WAY against the orthodoxy of some. So be it. Maybe some day I'll get the itch and spend big on a phono preamp, but probably not. In the meantime it'll be very interesting to me to see how long the 'rave run' goes on forums for Darlington.

We're bringing out Line Amplifiers, Headphone Amplifiers, Electronic Crossovers and other products in the future, but sales keep increasing on the phono preamps so we're not promising any firm dates. But hopefully at least a Headphone Amp of our own for the booth at AXPONA next April for potential clients to live-audition some records.

We work very hard to improve and optimize the Objective specifications of our units, consistent with our own subjective assessments and following research of what we consider to be good repute which informs us of the ear's actual dynamic response.

For example, we think you'll find our headroom specs in particular to be class-leading for a solid-state (J-FET) phono pre of reasonable purchase price as well as the behavior and smoothness with which they transition into final overload.

They have about 30dB or more of usable range above nominal level, and this is at a healthy gain of 40dB at 1kHz.

Our associated Active LOMC step-ups have headroom of more than 60dB above their nominal output of 5mV. These step-ups of ours could, in fact, be used as a fixed-gain line-level preamp (perhaps preceded by a 'passive' preamp and if set to a high-impedance input of 47K) although that is not their design intention.

 

[vinyldavid]

I had a Duo and it's not close. When I changed it out for the MP7, it sounded like I was listening to different records; the proverbial veil lifted.

The ASR test of the MM6...well I don't think you can go by just numbers. IMO, the tester at ASR is full of himself, but that's just me.
I think Darlington still offers a 30 day thing. Out of all the reviews, I believe there was only one gentleman who said he could not hear a difference and I don't think anyone complained about the SQ. Oh, ASR did, but they didn't actually listen to it.

I don't put stock in just numbers, but a device with almost 30db more noise to the signal raises eyebrows. Being full of yourself is fair when you have an Audio Precision and publish useful data.

SNR isn't everything, of course. I also didn't like my Nagaoka MP500, and sold it after two hours of listening.

 

[krichard2496]

I don't put stock in just numbers, but a device with almost 30db more noise to the signal raises eyebrows. Being full of yourself is fair when you have an Audio Precision and publish useful data.

SNR isn't everything, of course. I also didn't like my Nagaoka MP500, and sold it after two hours of listening.

Which device actually has a true audible noise floor 30dB higher than competitive products? Is this a phono preamp that has a very high input-stage current noise, which interacts with the inductive source impedance of most MM cartridges, and is quite noisy in real-world use, yet received a very high SINAD test over at ASR?

 

[theflattire]

I don't put stock in just numbers, but a device with almost 30db more noise to the signal raises eyebrows. Being full of yourself is fair when you have an Audio Precision and publish useful data.

SNR isn't everything, of course. I also didn't like my Nagaoka MP500, and sold it after two hours of listening.

I don't publish numbers, only what I hear.
YMMV

 

[krichard2496]

Darlington seems to be the current darling of the turntable-related forums. The guy who runs/owns them even makes appearances on ASR to argue for his designs against the measurements-only crowd there. He's very much a subjectivist from what I can tell. All of this reminds me MUCH of a period of time a few years ago when the Lounge LCRIII was praised bigly and uncannily frequently in the relevant forums. Lounge is still selling a series of LCR phono preamps that sell for up to $800+ but I almost never hear about them anymore.

I bought a Lounge LCR when it was the hot thing and I was extremely disappointed. It not only failed to sound the same as 'lesser' preamps I'd tried, it sounded different in ways I didn't like at all. I sold it off after a few weeks and became forevermore skeptical of claims of magic happening with a preamp switch. The differences I hear, even when making pretty big jumps in equipment, are typically subtle and can often be referred to as 'different, maybe better, maybe just different', so when I hear the usual audiophile claims I'm just...not...sure.

Regarding Darlington, and to be blunt, I'm more than a little suspicious when I see any equipment that becomes a darling of internet forums that gets discussed and praised constantly. Considering that phono preamps have been around for decades, I'm just not sure I buy into the hype surrounding the massive changes that hobbyists insist on hearing when they switch out what really ought to be a fairly simple component. I know this runs WAY against the orthodoxy of some. So be it. Maybe some day I'll get the itch and spend big on a phono preamp, but probably not. In the meantime it'll be very interesting to me to see how long the 'rave run' goes on forums for Darlington.

Spending Big currently starts at only $179 for our MM-5 and it, too, has a money-back 30 day return option. Around 15 to 20+% of the buyers of this model have gone on to say that "they are now a believer" in our products and methodology and immediately want to upgrade, to the MM-6 or even straight to the MP-7, when they hear what we can do with $180. Others remain very pleased with it, expect to keep it for the long-term, and consider it a great value.

We realize that our products are unique, and that "buzz" has been continuing to build, with many people talking about them recently but that there can still be questions about our designs. To our thinking the unweighted THD of 0.08% for an MP-7 at nominal output level of 500mV is both 'very good' by comparison both to (1) most non-feedback tube phono preamps or (2) 'most preamps being sold today by volume from Amazon'. SINAD as developed by that website in question is entirely misleading in the way that they test and our spec was entirely dominated by a small amount of inaudible 2nd harmonic distortion, which we could easily design out, even without using feedback, but have chosen not to for reasons throughly described over there.

A person correlating "noise" to our products is, in our opinion, either woefully misunderstanding the residual spectrum of our product with a 1kHz tone being fed through it, has an axe to grind, or is just wanting to "go against the grain". We are contrarians ourselves so the latter is fine; but we need to be entirely clear on a small measurable innocuous minor distortion product, and a noise floor that has audible and distracting hiss, hum, or buzz. A properly-operating and properly-installed one of our products have zero of the latter defects. In fact, "Inter-transient silence", a "black background", and "such silent operation" are three of the most-often-used terms we hear from new clients.

Our products are known for their very low noise floor, being nearly silent in operation even with traditionally-challenging situations like high inductance MM cartridges, or HOMCs with relatively low output like the Denon DL-110 at 1.6mV. Parenthetically, we have 'won over' the vast majority of buyers who have contacted us from that 'other' (Seattle-area) Objectivist site.

We can't speak as to competitors, but we have never paid for any forum placement or any reviews. To the best of our knowledge, all talk about our products has been entirely organic. We are now in our 24th month anniversary of sales to the public with zero formal advertising to date.

 

[theflattire]

2 year anniversary? Free stuff?

I think maybe the MM-3 should be an introductory kit, boards and parts, or just a parts list.
Too many crappy $100 stages out there already saturating the market. Dime a dozen.
Make folks build it that way they feel like they got something special. Sprinkle it with some of that Darlington pixie dust.
Gateway drug!

 

[doctor fuse]

Don’t get rid of your Tavish Designs pre until after you try that and the Darlington with a SUT and LOMC. That would be my advice. Then figure out which one you like better, and if they are the same, probably then sell the Tavish.
Looking forward to hearing your impressions when you go LOMC!

 

[ceylon]

wild, man. those are the two phono stages on my wish list, and sometimes DL has b stock. very cool.

 

[ceylon]

Spending Big currently starts at only $179 for our MM-5 and it, too, has a money-back 30 day return option. Around 15 to 20+% of the buyers of this model have gone on to say that "they are now a believer" in our products and methodology and immediately want to upgrade, to the MM-6 or even straight to the MP-7, when they hear what we can do with $180. Others remain very pleased with it, expect to keep it for the long-term, and consider it a great value.

We realize that our products are unique, and that "buzz" has been continuing to build, with many people talking about them recently but that there can still be questions about our designs. To our thinking the unweighted THD of 0.08% for an MP-7 at nominal output level of 500mV is both 'very good' by comparison both to (1) most non-feedback tube phono preamps or (2) 'most preamps being sold today by volume from Amazon'. SINAD as developed by that website in question is entirely misleading in the way that they test and our spec was entirely dominated by a small amount of inaudible 2nd harmonic distortion, which we could easily design out, even without using feedback, but have chosen not to for reasons throughly described over there.

A person correlating "noise" to our products is, in our opinion, either woefully misunderstanding the residual spectrum of our product with a 1kHz tone being fed through it, has an axe to grind, or is just wanting to "go against the grain". We are contrarians ourselves so the latter is fine; but we need to be entirely clear on a small measurable innocuous minor distortion product, and a noise floor that has audible and distracting hiss, hum, or buzz. A properly-operating and properly-installed one of our products have zero of the latter defects. In fact, "Inter-transient silence", a "black background", and "such silent operation" are three of the most-often-used terms we hear from new clients.

Our products are known for their very low noise floor, being nearly silent in operation even with traditionally-challenging situations like high inductance MM cartridges, or HOMCs with relatively low output like the Denon DL-110 at 1.6mV. Parenthetically, we have 'won over' the vast majority of buyers who have contacted us from that 'other' (Seattle-area) Objectivist site.

We can't speak as to competitors, but we have never paid for any forum placement or any reviews. To the best of our knowledge, all talk about our products has been entirely organic. We are now in our 24th month anniversary of sales to the public with zero formal advertising to date.

hey man, in your market u cant beat word of mouth among experienced audiophiles whove tried every entry in the phono book.

im readin this stuff gettin all excited to buy the mp-7 as soon as possible!

 

[ceylon]

Darlington seems to be the current darling of the turntable-related forums. The guy who runs/owns them even makes appearances on ASR to argue for his designs against the measurements-only crowd there. He's very much a subjectivist from what I can tell. All of this reminds me MUCH of a period of time a few years ago when the Lounge LCRIII was praised bigly and uncannily frequently in the relevant forums. Lounge is still selling a series of LCR phono preamps that sell for up to $800+ but I almost never hear about them anymore.

I bought a Lounge LCR when it was the hot thing and I was extremely disappointed. It not only failed to sound the same as 'lesser' preamps I'd tried, it sounded different in ways I didn't like at all. I sold it off after a few weeks and became forevermore skeptical of claims of magic happening with a preamp switch. The differences I hear, even when making pretty big jumps in equipment, are typically subtle and can often be referred to as 'different, maybe better, maybe just different', so when I hear the usual audiophile claims I'm just...not...sure.

Regarding Darlington, and to be blunt, I'm more than a little suspicious when I see any equipment that becomes a darling of internet forums that gets discussed and praised constantly. Considering that phono preamps have been around for decades, I'm just not sure I buy into the hype surrounding the massive changes that hobbyists insist on hearing when they switch out what really ought to be a fairly simple component. I know this runs WAY against the orthodoxy of some. So be it. Maybe some day I'll get the itch and spend big on a phono preamp, but probably not. In the meantime it'll be very interesting to me to see how long the 'rave run' goes on forums for Darlington.

great time and place for skepticism. thing is, u dont have to spend big on a darlington, and IIRC theres a time fram for full satisfaction. van alstine and tavish have one, also. lotta these small companies got satisfaction guarantees. they also gotmhigh resale values. has there ever been a better time to be a skeptic in the audio world?

 

[theflattire]

I just got a Cinemag 1254 SUT.
Full report with MP-7 soon.